NSAIDs for sheep

RE: NSAIDs for sheep

Julian Earl — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 23:03:34 GMT

If anyone ants a copy of my presentation to |Sheep Veterinary Society on this subject, then please PM your e-mail address and I shall forward it. I gave this paper years ago in 2000 after contacting the relevant companies to get any available information. Most off-data sheet of course. HTH?One ought to try the \Entrez PubMed site for any published research as well I expect.

RE: NSAIDs for sheep

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 22:18:09 GMT

There is growing evidence and use in the human literature of steroids for their analgesic properties - both alone and with other agents. They have been a cornerstone of palliative care for cancer patients, but have been used post operatively with few problems. I think vets are wimps when it comes to steroid use!

I wouldn't lamb a sheep without also administering analgesia. I just wouldn't. I couldn't justify my actions. Whilst we get people moan about the costs of things - I don't recall a farmer ever moaning about the cost of the painkiller. We would always quote prices PLUS drugs.

Personally I am quite convinced by the benefits of NSAIDs in sheep - even if the evidence is non existent. We have a lot of farmers using them themselves - Yorkshire farmers wouldn't pay for them if they weren't sure they got their money's worth. I use them in conjunction with epidurals and steroids.

I'm also not sure that farmers are as driven by cost as I used to think. With us a sheep caeser had been £50 forever (all in) - and there was no money in it. We'd raised our standards and the price needed to go up. We put it up to £70 + drugs (which add about £10, antibiotic, painkiller, oxytocin, local, clenbuterol) - realistically a bit over £80. Monitored carefully the number of ceasers done and we've done significantly more since we upped the price. These are mainly in commercial sheep, not fancy pedigree animals.

[quote user="Catriona MacIntyre"]I use Carprieve (carprofen) regularly in sheep, or Rimadyl when I can't get Carprieve. I was under the impression it lasted longer than 24 hours, but perhaps I am wrong in that.[/quote]

The drug companies 'suggest' these things - based on half life. There is nothing I have seen published suggesting these 2 or 3 days duration of analgesia. They don't put it on the data sheet, but the reps are keen to use it as a justification of the price. Cynical - me?

RE: NSAIDs for sheep

Catriona MacIntyre — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 19:54:38 GMT

I use Carprieve (carprofen) regularly in sheep, or Rimadyl when I can't get Carprieve. I was under the impression it lasted longer than 24 hours, but perhaps I am wrong in that.

This season I'll probably be using Recocam or Loxicom (meloxicam), because I got a decent deal. I often opt for meloxicam or carfprofen because they have a subcut license instead of IV. I have found generally that if a farmer SEES the results of it working well, he'll be more inclined to want to use it regularly.

My high genetic value Texel client started using it regularly when the shepherd asked me to see a ewe with nasty mastitis as a "while you're here" when I was out for a caesarian. He was shocked to see it up on it's feet and nursing just 90 minutes after carprieve and pen-strep and they keep the medicine cupboard stocked with it all that time now, using for assisted lambings, mastitis, bad pneumonias and "drookit lookin buggers"!

RE: NSAIDs for sheep

Seadna — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 18:17:41 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Cheap food is responsible for so much harm[/quote]

Agree wholeheartedly, and would place a huge amount of blame on the supermarkets for facilitating the cheapness.

RE: NSAIDs for sheep

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 17:11:06 GMT

Don't really know. You'll have to ask an anaesthetist. NSAIDs both reduce the inflammation which is a major component of the pain following a difficult lambing, and have a direct central analgesic effect. Steroids simply reduce the inflammation, so I would expect them to be inferior.

It's very very sad that sheep aren't worth a lot lot more, because farmers would treat them better if they were.

Cheap food is responsible for so much harm

Wynne

RE: NSAIDs for sheep

Seadna — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 16:26:28 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Not giving decent analgesia when needed[/quote]

So are you saying that the pain relief from steroids is inferior to NSAIDS Wynne? I'm starting to become afraid that I have a bit of a knowledge gap here...

RE: NSAIDs for sheep

Seadna — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 16:22:45 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]Would you not charge extra for the drugs on top of the lambing?[/quote]

Our low price is exactly why the ewes make it as far as us. We lamb so many in the busy season that we are quick and almost always have a successful outcome. At this low price, the farmers see us as a better alternative than killing the ewe or throwing her in a corner to die slowly. They often say to me (and how I hate hate HATE to hear it at 3am on a cold spring morning) "sure for the price of getting you to do it I thought I wouldn't abuse her any more and just get her down to you".

However, as it currently stands, the profit margin on these lambs is miniscule. If my price goes up to include the use of an NSAID they will soon harden their hearts and let the ewes live or die while they go back to bed.

I see what you are saying about discussing pain relief on an individual basis and it's something I might try this year. Is this what you do?

RE: NSAIDs for sheep

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 15:50:25 GMT

Not giving decent analgesia when needed theoretically carries with it the risk of 51 weeks imprisonment. If only the law was rigorously imposed. The problem as always is that all foods of animal origin need to be increased in price to the consumer by a factor of at least 4 or 5 x in order for what I would consider minimum standards of animal welfare to be achieved. This sort of thing makes me so so angry.

Wynne

RE: NSAIDs for sheep

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 15:30:20 GMT

[quote user="Seadna "]Margins are very tight with us as our charge for a lambing (at the surgery) is very cheap by national standards.[/quote]

I'm a bit confused by this? Would you not charge extra for the drugs on top of the lambing? If that's the case then discuss the benefit (potentially reduced risk of death, faster return to eating etc and therefore generally improved outcome...) vs risks (cost, possible adverse reactions which in your opinion are less risk than the risk of poor outcome without drugs etc) with the farmer and if they decline to pay the extra then they decline to pay the extra.

I tend towards nsaid if it has been a difficult lambing, but I hardly do any, most sheep never make it as far as the vets!

RE: NSAIDs for sheep

Seadna — Tue, 29 Dec 2015 15:25:47 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]There is a Phil Scott article somewhere suggesting using low dose dex with NSAIDs and I have used that a few times in very sick sheep with good effect.[/quote]

It's that time of year again. I just lambed my first ewe of the season and (unusually for our clients I have to say), she came to me having obviously had a bit of a doing from the previous attempts at lambing her. In a situation like this I always give Terramycin and either Colvasone or Voren to the ewe. Voren especially seems to bring ewes on the brink of death around within a matter of hours.

You know when ewes turn their heads to look around at you and give you that plaintative "baaaaaaaaa" during lambing? That kills me, and I always give them a steroid after! In contrast, the NSAIDS have let me down time and again with a seriously sick ewe, as well as being far more expensive.

I would love to hear other people's thoughts on this. Margins are very tight with us as our charge for a lambing (at the surgery) is very cheap by national standards. I simply would not get away with giving NSAIDs to every ewe lambing that comes through the door. What do you guys do? I hadn't thought of using Hexasol actually but again, it's at least 3 times the price of Terramycin with us and I'm not sure the longer duration of action is required in every case.

I do expect to get lambasted for throwing steroids around like sweeties so have at me, I'm ready! :D

Re: NSAIDs for sheep

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 24 Jan 2014 13:38:03 GMT

Julian - there is now a cow licensed ketamine so can be used in sheep under the cascade (ketamidor).

Also butorphanol has a meat withhold and MRL.

I've also seen rapid analgesia in sheep from IV Flunixin, so I am happy it is a decent analgesic.

Having used lots of NSAIDs in sheep I have never seen one made worse.

There is a Phil Scott article somewhere suggesting using low dose dex with NSAIDs and I have used that a few times in very sick sheep with good effect.

Re: NSAIDs for sheep

Julian Earl — Fri, 24 Jan 2014 11:11:12 GMT

I found the paper regarding NSAIDs and analgesics in sheep but it from 2000 and all off-licence information so the standard advice applies: check with the companies yourself for up to date information.

Carprofen 1ml per 25kg suggested. More effective than flunixin in one study.

Ketoprofen 2.5mg/kg iv, likely effective for 24hours, and a 1994 reference indicating efficacy for endotoxic shock.

Flunixin: 1ml/25-50kg iv. "Best regarded as an anti-inflammatory in sheep rather than an analgesic.

Meloxicam: 1ml/10-25kg "likely to be appropriate". Half -life of 26 hours in sheep; presumed effect is prolonged.As with cattle, 4 to 8 times the dose is toxic.

Tolfenamic acid: unknown dose, but effective for 48hr sin cattle.

Buscopan: 5-10ml iv, duration 2-4 hours.

Also:

Buprenorphine: 6ug/kg if. Duration up to 5 hours, onset 5-45 minutes. Unusable under cascade though.

Xylazine: 0.05 yo 0.2mg/kg im. Onset 10 minutes, lasts 45 mins. Analgesic effect plateaus at 0.1mg/kg. Most effective for analgesia in one 1996 study [Grant et al.] Risk of death after iv.

Ketamine 10-15mg/kg but unusable under cascade 1ml per 10-16kg slow iv. Potent analgesic.

HTH.

Re: NSAIDs for sheep

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 22:47:21 GMT

To be fair ours were too old, hardly laid any eggs, ate a lot of food and attracted rats so I killed them!

We will get some more in the spring.

Re: NSAIDs for sheep

tess — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 22:29:08 GMT

I find it difficult sometimes as clients get very attached to their hens.

Mine are for laying eggs, I'd rather not pump them full of drugs to get them better so if it's anything vaguely serious I would cull a sick bird instead.

I now ask clients at the beginning how they view their birds , to help me with a treatment plan, Their answers are very wide ranging!

There's also often an unrealistic expectation of how long they will live, especially commercial layers bought as pets.

Re: NSAIDs for sheep

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 22:18:30 GMT

I'd advise 28 days too.

A poultry vet once told me that if something has no milk withhold it won't get into the eggs. It's a rule I only applied to my chickens.

Re: NSAIDs for sheep

tess — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 22:09:53 GMT

Don't want to hijack this thread but what does everyone recommend re egg withdrawal for metacam in chickens. I've always erred on the side of caution and said 28d. Am I being over cautious? I'm aware that many backyard keepers sell surplus eggs to friends.

Re: NSAIDs for sheep

David Mills — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 21:41:18 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I also strongly suspect the differences between the different NSAIDs are overplayed by the drug companies. I treat them as pretty interchangeable.[/quote]

Yep, true this. The whole wash-out period is a load of illogical cack, based on surrogate markers i.e. degradation products which are wrongly equated with active compound; that, and being over cautious and market-interested.

Just think - if there was a wash-out period, then you'd need to use them every 5 days, not every day - imagine the accumulation...

Re: NSAIDs for sheep

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 20:58:22 GMT

I use lots of NSAIDs in sheep. Everything I lamb gets Hexasol LA.

Just because they are not licensed doesn't limit my usage. I'm surprised no-one has taken the initiative and got a sheep licence, then we'd all have to use that product.

I also strongly suspect the differences between the different NSAIDs are overplayed by the drug companies. I treat them as pretty interchangeable.

Re: NSAIDs for sheep

Julian Earl — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 20:25:29 GMT

I researched these off-data sheet dosages with all the drug companies some years ago and Metacam was advised at the same dose rate for cattle and considered [by Boehringer] to be best for musculoskeletal pain. Carprofen LA was recommended at 1ml/25kg subcut by Pfizer, but I just can't remember the recommendations for Flunixin and ketoprofen I'm afraid. If I can dig out my CP notes from those years ago, I'll return to the thread with the details

HTH.

A quick edit: I'm glad someone is asking about this. Although prof Phil Scott at Edinburgh does not think there is enough evidence to justify NSAIDs, I still think they are vastly underused. We chuck antibiotics at farm animals for any suspicion of infection but whilst not every sick animal is infected, I would suggest every sick animal feels sick and/or is in pain. Foot rot causes pain; lambings can result in infection but are painful., prolapses, wounds, almost everything as well. Yep. I've tried to limit antibiotic use by myself, but I liberally use NSAIDs for just about anything that is sick.

Re: NSAIDs for sheep

ChrisBVSc — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 19:05:54 GMT

It's been a couple of years but I've used meloxicam, carpofen & flunixin in sheep without any problems. Also I seem to remember we had an old pet sheep with arthritis who was on daily bute!

Re: NSAIDs for sheep

Matt Hilary — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 18:14:18 GMT

I've used ketofen (ketoprofen) without any problems though would agree metacam probably better choice.

Re: NSAIDs for sheep

Alan Tevendale — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:49:34 GMT

+1 for Metacam. We also stick with the cattle dose and as has been previously stated the 28 days for meat.

Re: NSAIDs for sheep

karen jones — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 13:25:15 GMT

We use lots of metacam cattle in sheep and sell it for post lambing using cattle dose and 28 d on meat .

Re: NSAIDs for sheep

Rob Davis — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 12:12:00 GMT

Many thanks. I guess he'll be at home for at least another 28 days...

Re: NSAIDs for sheep

bob lehner — Wed, 22 Jan 2014 09:32:13 GMT

Go to the vmd website - on the rhs of main page you will see 'Guidance Notes' - no. 13 - 'The Cascade'

For a food producing animal you can use a product under the Cascade, providing it has a license for a food producing species.

To calculate the withdrawal period:

'24. Where a product is used under the

Cascade in a food producing species the

veterinary surgeon is responsible for defin

ing an appropriate withdrawal period in all

cases. Such a withdrawal period has to

be selected to ensure that residues above

the MRL will not occur. If the product is

administered to a species not identified on

the SPC, or to an authorised species but at

a higher dosage than recommended, it is

necessary to apply the

minimum

statutory withdrawal per

iods, or the withdrawal

period stated on the SPC, whichever is longer

. The minimum statutory withdrawal

periods are as follows:

•

7 days for eggs and milk

•

28 days for meat from

poultry and mammals

•

500 degree days for meat from fish'