My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Glenn Hodgson — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 20:19:06 GMT

We currently use fipronil spray and of course mote avoidance. works for most....

My nieghbours cat has to be locked in side even with lashings of weekly fipronil and pren-emptive systemic steroids.

I also had to euthanase a cat last year because of these horroble things as being indoor was not an pption. We have all the cats on our pets clib strongholded for flease but doesnt SEEM to help.

please keep alternatives flowing. Will prpbably try seresto this year for some problem cases.

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 18:47:00 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]vague memory that the reason the spray works but not the Spot-On is that it's the carrier not the fipronil that kills the mites[/quote]

My understanding was you needed quite high doses of fipronil for harvest mites, and these weren't achieved at the bottom of the legs when the spoton was applied on the back of the neck?

[/quote]

That does make far more sense!

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Rob Loxley — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 18:33:13 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]vague memory that the reason the spray works but not the Spot-On is that it's the carrier not the fipronil that kills the mites[/quote]

My understanding was you needed quite high doses of fipronil for harvest mites, and these weren't achieved at the bottom of the legs when the spoton was applied on the back of the neck?

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 18:23:22 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Keir"]

It says so on the front of the bottle.

[/quote]

It says 'Fleas, Ticks and Lice' in large letters, underneath in smaller italic letters it says 'Cheylettiella, Neotrombicula and Sarcoptes' with an asterisk after it, the footnote says 'See further information enclosed'. The further information is as on the data sheet 'may aid in the control of...'

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Sarah Keir — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 17:45:30 GMT

It says so on the front of the bottle.

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

bob lehner — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 17:17:38 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Keir"]Frontline Spray is licensed to treat harvest mites AKA Neotrombicula[/quote]

I don't think the license actually applies to Neotrombicula - but it does give an addendum at the end of the data sheet:

'FRONTLINE Spray may aid in the control of a number of ectoparasite species in dogs and cats including Neotrombicula autumnalis, Sarcoptes spp. and Cheyletiella spp' (Not quite the same as saying it does actually work).

Treating cat's feet with the spray does seem to be beneficial - but not always easy for owners to achieve with an un-cooperative cat. I tell people to spray liberally onto a soft cloth and then rub round the feet and between the toes. Not so easy to treat round the face tho'.

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 17:12:52 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Keir"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

As far as I am aware there is no product available that is licensed to treat harvest mites, so treatment choice is often based on experience and anecdote. Both Stronghold and Advocate appear to be effective, in the days before either were available we used to use Frontline Spray and found it very effective, though Frontline Spot-On doesn't work.

[/quote]

Frontline Spray is licensed to treat harvest mites AKA Neotrombicula. I find it works well at killing but no repellant activity so cats that get bad reactions to the mites some owners use it fortnightly on the feet and face only (off license so have usual discussion). I have totally lost confidence in Frontline's activity against fleas.

[/quote]

I had only skimmed the licence, and interestingly neotrombicula isn't listed in the 'uses' section, but in the 'further information section' it says:

FRONTLINE Spray may aid in the control of a number of ectoparasite species in dogs and cats including Neotrombicula autumnalis, Sarcoptes spp. and Cheyletiella spp.

I've got a a vague memory that the reason the spray works but not the Spot-On is that it's the carrier not the fipronil that kills the mites, which would fit with it killing them but not then having any repellant activity. I still find the spray very effective against fleas, not so convinced about the spot-on.

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Sarah Keir — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 16:54:10 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[/quote]

Sarah

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 12:43:20 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]Both Stronghold and Advocate appear to be effective, in the days before either were available we used to use Frontline Spray and found it very effective, though Frontline Spot-On doesn't work.[/quote] We had a dog this Autumn with a severe harvest mite infestation that was driving it insane and it was showing serious neurological symptoms. It was so bad I had to GA it and washed it in Aludex then gave it anti-inflammatory doses of dexamethasone. It took a good week to get back to normal.

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:27:19 GMT

[quote user="Neal Palk"]

A fascinating thread and thanks for the time folk have expended on the advice & suggestions.

If this question is inappropriate - please either ignore it or (Arlo) delete this post. On the basis she is exposed to and potentially affected by fleas,ticks and the wretched harvest mites.............what treatment actually works? (hence the potentially sensitive element!). We used to use Stronghold but weretold it didn't deter HMs and were swapped to Advocate. There seems to be a myriad of proprietory products with an equal variety of feedback and support.

Is it naive of me to ask - which is really the best for the circumstances of my cat?

[/quote]

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Bob Russell — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:21:24 GMT

Stronghold probably the best for harvest mites IMO. Not sure if the flumethrin in Seresto has any repellent activity. Not sure how common harvest mite allergies are but they can be very severe. I would not use a collar on a cat with sore skin though!

Not a fan of Advocate! Good for fleas if used very regularly but so is Advantage (& cheaper!). Can't think of anything repellent in Advocate or Stronghold.

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Neal Palk — Wed, 15 Jan 2014 10:12:30 GMT

A fascinating thread and thanks for the time folk have expended on the advice & suggestions.

Is it naive of me to ask - which is really the best for the circumstances of my cat?

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

bob lehner — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 21:13:09 GMT

[quote user="Sammy82"], but the predictable seasonal outbreak has convinced me of the link to harvest mites. Obviously not just the normal harvest mite itch but an allergic reaction. [/quote]

Just what I was saying - I'm convinced that a small number of cats do suffer from this largely un-recognised severe allergic harvest mite syndrome.

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Glenn Hodgson — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 20:14:15 GMT

+1 For fad and allergies.

Also our practice is in berry bug central so prob. veer to them more than others on this forum. I have plenty of patients that have to be locked inside during the prolonged berry bug season. Your parctice will know when/if the bugs come out as thet will likely have a number of itchy patients in that fortnight.

+1 For plenty of 'roids, systemic ones, good doses, not stopped too soon. Sometimes with added topical steroids.

This type of problem is a pain but can usualy be resolved and managed well in future years/episodes when you know it's coming

best of luck.

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Miriam Lodewyks — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 19:54:52 GMT

+1 for flea allergy dermatitis, until proven otherwise.

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Sammy82 — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 19:37:33 GMT

Your cat sounds very much like my own Neal. Every late summer/september he develops a nasty non healing wound between his shoulder blades, sometimes accompanied by indolent ulcers and this year wheepy smelly interdigital dermatitis with smelly swollen nailbeds. There was only a very small number of harvest mites. Antibiotics and NSAIDs did nothing for it, Voren only brought temporary relief, a course of preds cleared it up i 5 days. I was looking into food allergy, but the predictable seasonal outbreak has convinced me of the link to harvest mites. Obviously not just the normal harvest mite itch but an allergic reaction. Not very many mites needed to trigger it, and as they only stay on the animal f 10 days they could easily be missed. I used Advocate too.

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 18:50:21 GMT

As suggested Neal you have two problems really, one you have learned to live with and you know is self limiting with minimal intervention and one which although may have been related has now become an entity on its own. Perseverance in preventing further self-perpetuation should pay off taking heed of the other preventative suggestions but I have had a few where the short cut was to just surgically remove the lesion, especially on the back where there is plenty of healthy skin to close the wound.. You're then left with a clean wound that will take just 1-2 weeks to heal and no more need for long-term immunosuppressive drugs.. Of course you can't tell the vet what to do (well you could!) but maybe mention you heard that it may help on the ubiquitous interweb!

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Anthony Todd — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 18:37:28 GMT

[quote user="Neal Palk"]So, after 4-5 months (usually back to normal by now) we have a large (?) open 'sore' with no sign or healing, let alone fur regrowth. We've got no clue and our vet doesn't really seem to have any alternative other than the body suit which didn't work the last time (we used it for about 3 weeks continuously). I've taken the liberty of attaching a photo from 2200 yesterday.[/quote]

Yes, the usual typical story, from a frustrated client and pet-lover.

I'd love to see all those bills.

Wait until you go through referrals, biopsies, cultures, blood tests and weeks of expensive antibiotics, mate, you ain't spent nothing yet!

All, in so many cases, because of an almost evangelical or psychopathic aversion to steroids and a conviction that no treatment, even palliative, let alone symptomatic, can even be begun before a diagnosis, however vague and inconsequential, has been laboriously and expensively obtained.

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Neal Palk — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 18:19:01 GMT

All - this is non-attributable and isn't going to something to beat up my current vet with either, it's solely for my understanding as this wound has been evident for several months now and even (excuse the analogy) a childs picked scab heals up quicker than that (well, mine used to!). I feel like an expert about Harvest mites as the topic comes up every year, never seen a single orangey thing on her though, not even in those little pouches on each ear....

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Anthony Todd — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:24:45 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] Are we guilty of failing to follow the GoPC rules on supercession?[/quote]

Probably, I just want to fix the cat, and, I missed the cat flap so fleas have got to be odds on, or at least the first thing to eliminate definitely and continuously and for sure.

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:21:29 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"] starting in August and ending with first frost, strongly suggests harvest mites. [/quote] Surely after several years someone would have spotted the little orange dots on the ears and/or done a scrape. And why trunk as well as head and not paws.

Even though Neal has been more than generous to me with giving employment law advice so I can't not reciprocate, it has just occurred to me whether we should be giving any advice at all to a layman when we haven't got the case history from the attending vet. Are we guilty of failing to follow the GoPC rules on supercession?

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Anthony Todd — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 17:20:37 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]not depo injections or Ovarid - awaits brickbats!)[/quote]

Here they come.

I should have kept a record of numerous cats been on all the things everyone has suggested for months and finally fixed, and in one visit, if they do as I've said.

With a proviso, and it's obvious very quickly, that if the response isn't total by the time the first lot of steroids wear off, then look for the rarities.

Seen harvest mites too, but they never gave the intense irritation and lesions that fleas seem to, but happy to be corrected.

Depomed and Ovarid, if depomed fails, is the only thing that will cure an eosinophilic granuloma orthe various manifestations even if it's well established and they just go on getting larger for months.

Eosinophilic granulomas are self perpetuating anyway, independent of cause once they're well established.

Topicals, apart from their inevitable irritation and difficulty in getting a greasy ointment, or anything to stay on a wet oozy surface, therefore are a waste of time and money, owner compliance is poor and it ends up as an oral steroid anyway.... The lesions, without collars etc., become worse in a matter of hours, or overnight.

Even the OP has sussed that one!!

Please yourself, [I hate to be so dogmatic] but I've seen so many cats treated, with their head in a collar and all that for long expensive periods, [which I think is just cruel], and of course, the lesion heals, collar off and overnight you're back at square one....

Await ridicule, condemnation and multiple red stars but happy in the knowledge that many cats were spared months of discomfit and "diagnosis" when I finally saw them.

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

bob lehner — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:55:56 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]The fact that its seasonal to Autumn means that it is something that is around that time of year.[/quote]

I would agree - but to me, starting in August and ending with first frost, strongly suggests harvest mites. I'm sure these are seen earlier in the year these days than the 'text book' says -i.e traditionally late summer/autumn - and even urban cats will be exposed to them.

I'm also quite convinced there is a very nasty but largely undocumented severe allergy to harvest mites in cats, which can cause a severe dermatitis with self-trauma and secondary pyoderma extending anywhere from the head to the dorsal spine.

Very frustrating to treat - lots of parasite control (nothing licensed - so have to use what is available), systemic abs (amoxyclav or ceporex) and high, then tapering dose of preds.

Will clear up eventually.

(My wife's best friend's cat gets what sounds like an identical syndrome to yours, at exactly the same time of the year, regular as clockwork).

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Neal Palk — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:42:33 GMT

Thank you so much everyone - there's a lot of food for thought and some education for me too. I will digest all the commentary, but a soft collar anyway for a few quid and report back if the wound ever heals!!.........

Re: My cat....2nd, 3rd, 4th opinions please!

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 14 Jan 2014 16:12:13 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"] I would suggest trying a soft collar, I was a bit sceptical when we first tried them, but I've found them just as effective as the hard plastic ones for lesions on the head and trunk, [/quote]I had previously dismissed these as too expensive for routine use especially as we do a lot of charity neutering. However, my assistant brought one back from the LVS and I tried it on a charity spay. It lasted precisely as long as it took the cat to get home before it got it off. The problem is the lace used to tighten/secure it which is very difficult to tie securely. This was solved by replacing it with a length of WOW bandage but the cat had been sent off with a Buster collar by then. Next I tried it on my own cat and whilst the bandage made it easier to secure she very quickly learned how to fold the collar back and could easily lick the wound and scratch her ear.

Fortunately my surgical skills and analgesia were clearly the equal of Michael's and she didn't interfere with the wound but I wouldn't like to risk one in anger on a paying client's cat.