RAW and Salmonella

Re: RAW and Salmonella

Alex Gough — Fri, 13 Dec 2013 14:18:48 GMT

The bowl cleaning is a fair point to be aware of though. I dont tend to clean my dog's bowls much, but they are fed dry food and lick the bowls so clean it hardly seems worth it!

Re: RAW and Salmonella

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 13 Dec 2013 13:25:40 GMT

Point taken! I just found that cleaning bowls and better hygiene helped a chronic GI issue where commercial food was being fed, not raw, so admittedly based on anecdotal evidence, when there's a chronic GI issue, looking at food prep has a place, whether or not it is a commercial or raw food being fed.

I would also point out that if you had contaminated chicken, prepared it on a cooking surface, and then didn't clean it correctly, any further clean chicken would run the risk of contamination, so I do believe that point 4, while true for contaminated food, isn't true for clean food you're trying to keep uncontaminated. (Not every raw chicken is contaminated; some owners and suppliers do try to take proper precautions.)

I cheerfully concede that this is not based on any particular paper, and correlation does not equal causation.

Re: RAW and Salmonella

Alex Gough — Fri, 13 Dec 2013 12:37:59 GMT

Im not sure how what you said differs from what I said. When feeding raw, hygiene makes no difference to the dog, except regarding washing the dog's dish.

Let me be clear about which points of good food hygience practice I think make no difference to the dog if you feed say some raw chicken hooching with Salmonella

1. Avoiding contact of the uncooked food with cooked for for human consumption

2. Washing hands before preparing the food

3. Wearing gloves when handling the food

4. Preparing the food on carefully cleaned surfaces

Cleaning the dog's bowl to reduce food poisoning bacteria might be helpful, especially if raw food is fed routinely.

However, good kitchen hygiene preparation will make next to no difference to whether the dog picks up Salmonella from already contaminated food.

Why does it matter if they pick it up if dogs are resistant? Because they then shed it. They lick their bums and lick the baby, and poo in the park (are you confident you have picked up every bit of diarrhoea with your doggy bag?)

I think that in the absence of proven benefits to the animal, feeding raw food to pets is irresponsible predmoninantly for its human health issues, and these cannot be eliminated, or even significantly minimised by having good kitchen hygiene, unless you cook the food.

Alex

Re: RAW and Salmonella

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 13 Dec 2013 12:19:44 GMT

[quote user="alex gough"]

So better hygiene reduces the risk to the food handler but not to the dog. Except perhaps for washing up the dog bowl properly if you are feeding raw.

[/quote]

No, I'm saying good hygiene reduces risk to the dog as well - I'm not sure where I was being unclear but I'm sorry about any misunderstanding. When you or a dog eat off a dirty plate you can get sick. Make sure you have clean plates and clean food prep. No matter what you feed.

Re: RAW and Salmonella

Alex Gough — Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:44:45 GMT

So better hygiene reduces the risk to the food handler but not to the dog. Except perhaps for washing up the dog bowl properly if you are feeding raw.

Re: RAW and Salmonella

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 13 Dec 2013 10:39:09 GMT

[quote user="alex gough"]

[/quote]

Not exactly; the hygiene should be aimed at general cleanliness and hygiene, and as a side effect of that the food preparer (and ideally the consumers) don't get laid up with food borne disease.

The hygiene in food prep needs to be equally good for humans and animals; the fact that animals may be more resistant to salmonella still means we need to serve food in clean standards. I totally agree with Bob that the average UK person seems to have shockingly bad awareness of food safety.

So good kitchen hygiene will help here. (And yes, a nice long course of fenbendazole for the giardia they'll probably have too, but i've banged that drum long enough to wear it out!)

Re: RAW and Salmonella

Alex Gough — Fri, 13 Dec 2013 09:35:52 GMT

Maybe I'm being dense but how does poor hygiene in the kitchen reduce the risk to dogs contracting salmonella from uncooked meat? The hygiene issues are related to preventing spread to the food preparer, the poor dogs have to consume the contaminated meat regardless. After which they will then go and shed it into the environment. I do sometimes wonder about our profession's attitude to zoonoses. MRSA may grab the headlines in the human and veterinary field, but Salmonella probably has a higher morbidity and mortality rate.:

The Health Protection Agency (HPA) - now part of Public Health England - reported 14,465 cases of all salmonella in the year 2000 and there has been a downward trend in the subsequent years (figures for 2010 show a total of 9,133 cases).^[3] The majority of cases are S. enteritidis. The highest rate of infection is in those aged over 70 and under 20, especially infants. Infection with Salmonella spp. is a possible cause of traveller's diarrhoea.

Infection with Salmonella spp. is responsible for about 80 deaths occurring in the UK each year.^[13] Those most at risk are the elderly and infants. Most people recover uneventfully.

Re: RAW and Salmonella

Bob Russell — Fri, 13 Dec 2013 09:15:38 GMT

Having seen some peoples idea of kitchen hygiene I would also be willing to spread the blame a bit!

The handling of uncooked poultry puts the fear of god in me (even at home!) despite the two main cooks having hygiene certificates from local colleges. As soon as they cook at home the rules seem to go out of the window.

I have at long last managed to get them to use a half decent dishwasher cycle that will get everything over 60C.

Having worked as an OVS in the dim and distant past when I cook the gloves and protective clothing goes on!

If the RMB is suspected as the source contact environmental health to test samples.

Dogs generally have good tolerance to salmonella so it may not be the only/true cause!

Re: RAW and Salmonella

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 13 Dec 2013 08:58:12 GMT

Actually, that's not so much the RAW diet's fault as it is poor food hygiene during preparation. I worked with a client who's large cat population (rehoming shelter) had a chronic D+ issue and it was down to the fact that the bowls weren't properly cleaned between feeding. Commercial wet food, not raw food, just a 'quick scrub with soapy water' and they weren't doing any periodic serious disinfection, so the animals were constantly reinfecting themselves.

Have him disinfect cutting boards, keep food frozen for several days to kill parasites if the source of the food is uncertain, defrost in fridge, and don't leave out for hours if pet doesn't eat it immediately. Also disinfect food bowls in hot soapy water, dettol, clorox, whatever.

I know that RAW is blamed for a host of ills (and commercial food is accused of spreading plagues of locusts and rains of frogs) but in this case it's the food prep (and storage) that's probably at fault, not an innate defect in RAW. Food prep is one discussion I always had with raw food feeders in practice.