Hibernating tortoises

Re: Hibernating tortoises

John Ellis — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 23:24:41 GMT

I agree with Marie, and always recommend hibernation (or in fact, brumation, if we are all supposed to be technically accurate!) of those species that would hibernate naturally in the wild. Particularly with species like Horsfields, for example, that are not designed to be eating and growing all year round.

Re: Hibernating tortoises

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 17:00:37 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]erm.... in which case your understanding was wrong... oh, wait....hang on.... but you're never wrong...[/quote] At this point I will invoke the fifth ammendment and emulate Lance Armstrong who when called upon to explain himself in front of the anti-doping agency stated that a time comes is a man's life when enough is enough and he will gain no more by protesting his innocence further. The fact that he subsequently admitted doping is irrelevant and I will not confess to being wrong (unless you also pay me a lot of money to go on the Oprah Winfrey show).

Re: Hibernating tortoises

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 16:57:36 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]At least its not bloody Kate Humble's tortoise otherwise we may be in real trouble here![/quote]

Is there a secret game that I'm not part of involving trying to get Kate Humble referenced in every thread?

[/quote]

Who is Kate Humble?

Re: Hibernating tortoises

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 16:32:21 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] OK, go on admit it, you visited Dr Google! [/quote]

You cheeky b*****!

In fact, I already knew the precise meaning of the words hibernate and aestivate and use them both on pretty much a daily basis!!!!! (I discuss aestivation whenever someone brings a lethargic tortoise in, as cooking them in glass tanks is not uncommon....!!!)

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] But my understanding of aestivation is a short period of reduced activity and metabolism in response conserve body resources during a period of adverse environmental conditions.[/quote]

erm.... in which case your understanding was wrong... oh, wait....hang on.... but you're never wrong....

Re: Hibernating tortoises

Marie Kubiak — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 16:31:23 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

I would normally bow to your greater knowledge on captive exotic pets Marie but hibernation is not replicating natural behaviour it is an adaptation to our climate. In their natural habitat the need to hibernate for long periods of time is not necessary.

[/quote]

So why do their wild Testudo tortoise counterparts in Mediterranean countries and Russia hibernate annually then if they don't need to?

Marie

Re: Hibernating tortoises

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:44:37 GMT

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]Just because we have compromised their behaviour in many ways by keeping them captive doesn't mean we shouldn't then try and replicate as many other aspects as we can.[/quote] I would normally bow to your greater knowledge on captive exotic pets Marie but hibernation is not replicating natural behaviour it is an adaptation to our climate. In their natural habitat the need to hibernate for long periods of time is not necessary. That they can survive several months of hibernation annually or never hibernate yet either way live for 60-70 years is a testament to their resilience and adaptability which is probably why they've survived a couple of mass extinctions.

Re: Hibernating tortoises

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:42:05 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]At least its not bloody Kate Humble's tortoise otherwise we may be in real trouble here![/quote]

Is there a secret game that I'm not part of involving trying to get Kate Humble referenced in every thread?

Re: Hibernating tortoises

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:35:52 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Hibernate. They aestivate when it is too hot and dry.[/quote] OK, go on admit it, you visited Dr Google! But my understanding of aestivation is a short period of reduced activity and metabolism in response conserve body resources during a period of adverse environmental conditions. Hamsters aestivate when cold, they are not strictly hibernating. At least its not bloody Kate Humble's tortoise otherwise we may be in real trouble here!

Re: Hibernating tortoises

Marie Kubiak — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 15:33:33 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

This does not really apply because tortoises kept in the UK are not in their natural environment and therefore are not expressing normal behavior. For sure there may be cold spells in their natural habitat when they may aestivate for short periods but there is absolute no necessity for this if the environment remains warm enough. I'm sure it is a case of habit born from days when we lived in homes without central heating to keep our homes warm through the winter and just continue to think: 'tortoises hibernate don't they, so lets get it cold enough to hibernate'. If you are providing the optimum environment for keeping tortoises they don't need to hibernate.

[/quote]

Just because we have compromised their behaviour in many ways by keeping them captive doesn't mean we shouldn't then try and replicate as many other aspects as we can.

Hibernation is not simply a nap! It is a physiological adaptation in animals evolved over millenia to live in fluctuating seasonal temperatures and their growth rates and reproductive cycling are heavily interwoven with this. Deciding that it is inconvenient doesn't undo evolution and the role of hibernation in normal physiology. Yes many can survive missing hibernation but that doesn't automatically mean that missing it is the best thing for them.

Marie

Re: Hibernating tortoises

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 14:26:03 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]For sure there may be cold spells in their natural habitat when they may aestivate for short periods[/quote]

Hibernate. They aestivate when it is too hot and dry.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]but there is absolute no necessity for this if the environment remains warm enough[/quote]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] If you are providing the optimum environment for keeping tortoises they don't need to hibernate.[/quote]

In your opinion. (Unless you can provide some kind of evidence?)

My opinion differs from yours.

Re: Hibernating tortoises

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 16 Oct 2013 13:02:56 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I prefer to allow animals to express normal behaviour whenever possible.[/quote] This does not really apply because tortoises kept in the UK are not in their natural environment and therefore are not expressing normal behavior. For sure there may be cold spells in their natural habitat when they may aestivate for short periods but there is absolute no necessity for this if the environment remains warm enough. I'm sure it is a case of habit born from days when we lived in homes without central heating to keep our homes warm through the winter and just continue to think: 'tortoises hibernate don't they, so lets get it cold enough to hibernate'. If you are providing the optimum environment for keeping tortoises they don't need to hibernate.

Re: Hibernating tortoises

Marie Kubiak — Tue, 15 Oct 2013 20:04:03 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

I would agree that tortoises don't have to hibernate - and some people do it so badly they cause harm - but hibernation is part of normal behaviour for some species of tortoises and I prefer to allow animals to express normal behaviour whenever possible.

[/quote]

Completely agree - I recommend hibernation for any healthy tortoise as I see far more problems with obesity/excessive or irregular growth/abnormal reproductive cycling in pet tortoises than with the actual hibernation process. I'm more cautious with little ones and go for a 2-3wk hibernation at their first attempt and go through the preparation, hibernation period and wake-up period in excruciatingly dull minute detail with owners to try and get the owner trained to do things well from the start. I find 'new' tortoise owners much more receptive than those that have just chucked it out in the garden every year for 50yrs and hope if emerges intact sometime in spring after a 6 month hibernation!

Marie

Re: Hibernating tortoises

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 15 Oct 2013 19:40:09 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]IMO 100 gm for 3" (75mm) is too light for safe hibernation according to the Jackson Ratio, I would like it to be weighing 120 - 130 gm[/quote]

Martin:

The measurements given by the OP were only approximate.

The Jackson ratio is dreadfully inaccurate at this low weight/length.

The actual ratio, even at these approximate weights, is 0.23 = overweight, not underweight!!!

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] I don't know why there is such an obsession with hibernating tortoises they don't necessarily do it in their natural environment [/quote]

I doubt there are many winters that don't get cold enough to hibernate - although they will generally be a lot shorter than ours. There is not enough research to tell us if constant overwintering causes health problems, but there are certainly indications that it can: for example, females can have reproductive issues and some tortoises get too 'fat'!!!

Re: Hibernating tortoises

Sammy82 — Tue, 15 Oct 2013 18:03:22 GMT

Same here, my father's Hermanii hasn't hibernated since he got it 47 years ago.He just keeps it suitable warm and fed during the winter and it's still going strong, must be 60 odd years old as it was adult size already when he got it.

Re: Hibernating tortoises

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 15 Oct 2013 15:24:09 GMT

IMO 100 gm for 3" (75mm) is too light for safe hibernation according to the Jackson Ratio, I would like it to be weighing 120 - 130 gm. I don't know why there is such an obsession with hibernating tortoises they don't necessarily do it in their natural environment and at that size a suitable vivarium should be easy to set up. One of my nurses had a corner of her living room partitioned off and suitably lit/heated and all her tortoises (several species) over-wintered happily and actively in there.

Re: Hibernating tortoises

KMurphy — Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:57:44 GMT

Thanks Gillian, that's a great help!

Re: Hibernating tortoises

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 15 Oct 2013 13:24:52 GMT

A short (normal) hibernation (8 weeks or so) would be fine, as long as the tortoise is healthy and the hibernation environment is correct. If either of those things are questionable, then it would be best not to hibernate.

http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/newhibernation.html