Tortoise Hibernation

Re: Tortoise Hibernation

Gareth C. — Mon, 23 Sep 2013 17:54:00 GMT

they're pretty "clever" though. On Sunday I saw mine had propped herself at 45 degress from the horizontal perfectly aligned to catch every last photon of our late september sun. and still eating like a (solar powered) horse outside!

Re: Tortoise Hibernation

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 22 Sep 2013 22:59:51 GMT

[quote user="Tmac"]Thanks Gareth - just received a message from owner to say "according to the Jackson's ratio he is at "a dangerous low weight for length ratio" to be able to hibernate (12.2 cm for 361 g) so am interested to see what experts think".....[/quote]

As has been said, be careful attaching toomuch importance to the Jackson Ratio. It is a very loose guide but atypical shell growth, eggs, ascites, poor calcification etc will all interfere with it and make it useless.

I'd still be far more concerned that it hasn't grown/gained weight in 12 months.

Re: Tortoise Hibernation

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 22 Sep 2013 22:55:54 GMT

[quote user="Gareth C."]except that adult hermans are slightly more tolerant of cooler temperatures than some other species, and many live reasonably happily mainly outdoors, but then I do live in Devon so anywhere "up north" may be different. [/quote]

I'd agree that you'll get away with the slightly better temps in Devon, where you wouldn't in the majority of the UK. I think the phrase 'slightly more tolerant' is correct - It still isn't comparable to the summers you get in Southern France/Mediterranean, is it?

[quote user="Gareth C."] If they are outdoors most of the time there is enough UVA and UVB etc from the sun, according to Kevin Eatwell, and shouldnt need supp UV lights.[/quote]

I'd be surprised if any tortoise is spending the majority of their time outdoors in this country! Our summers are simply not long enough.

Re: Tortoise Hibernation

Gareth C. — Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:46:36 GMT

i would scour the BCG website and tortoise trust or anything by Kevin Eatwell. We see a lot of trotoises so literally get a feel for what is normal. I'm not a Specialist so dont want to give too much specific advice!

Re: Tortoise Hibernation

Tmac — Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:12:26 GMT

Can you guide me to a source of info for pre-hibernation assessment/body condition scoring?

We are not so blessed with exotics vets as we used to be around here unfortunately.

Re: Tortoise Hibernation

Gareth C. — Fri, 20 Sep 2013 17:00:14 GMT

there is some debate about how useful the jacksons ratio is in captive tortoises. i go by condition score (usually rear end legs and body).

Re: Tortoise Hibernation

Tmac — Fri, 20 Sep 2013 16:48:58 GMT

Thanks Gareth - just received a message from owner to say "according to the Jackson's ratio he is at "a dangerous low weight for length ratio" to be able to hibernate (12.2 cm for 361 g) so am interested to see what experts think".....

Not got time at mo but will speak to her later ref environment etc but with the above info, is hibernation really a good idea for this tortoise? Sounds like something isn't quite right...

Re: Tortoise Hibernation

Gareth C. — Fri, 20 Sep 2013 16:31:23 GMT

you cant go too far wrong with the tortoise trust website for guidance. Or the BCG. we hibernate tortoises in a chiller at the practice. important to make sure its starved for 4weeks prehibernation

agree with everything else by gillian except that adult hermans are slightly more tolerant of cooler temperatures than some other species, and many live reasonably happily mainly outdoors, but then I do live in Devon so anywhere "up north" may be different. If they are outdoors most of the time there is enough UVA and UVB etc from the sun, according to Kevin Eatwell, and shouldnt need supp UV lights. Please take into account though I live quite near the Herman's natural range (mid france) in devon relative to Scotland. The most difficult time to get it right is the cooler months of spring and autumn. mine was quite happy eating outside on a fairly damp and cool day last week, but wont be long before she needs to be indoors.

Re: Tortoise Hibernation

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 20 Sep 2013 14:29:00 GMT

OMG - I've just written a lengthy reply and then lost it...

I don't know the exact legislation but I doubt you can simply travel around with a CITES Annex A species. Especially as you are travelling to/from a country where they are living in conservation projects in the wild.
They need to make sure they have specimen specific article 10 paperwork, which you apply to DEFRA for after the tortoise is microchipped. Most owners only have the transaction article 10 certificate that they were (hopefully) given on purchase - which will not identify the individual tortoise and will have the purchaser's name and address.
You need to get exact information on the environment - sizes, types of heating/lighting, exact temperature measurements in different parts of the enclosure at different times of the day and night.
Tortoises hate being enclosed in boxes (and glass tanks are only good for fish) but it is difficult to provide the heating and lighting needed in a large open area. Compromises usually have to be found and therefore there is rarely a 'one size fits all' solution for tortoise housing.
the average person knows next to nothing about reptile physiology and husbandry needs. Examples of statements that I hear all the time:

- the vivarium is top spec. The totoise doesn't like it though so it spends its days wandering round the house. (Low temps and v v draughty)

- I heard iceberg is bad for them so I only feed rocket, little gem, tomatoes, cucumber etc etc

- my tortoise is warm enough cos it sits under the radiator all day. (coldest part of any room)

- my tortoise only eats one leaf every week but they never eat very much, do they? (Tortoises are grazers and should eat a fair bit every day...)

- I have a 'garden tortoise' so I don't need a vivarium

- but the guy at the pet shop said.........

- my tortoise hibernates inside a woolly hat behind the sofa. (This is true.)

- I think my tortoise is hibernating because it hasn't eaten in a few weeks. (Even though it is still in its warm vivarium and the environment hasn't changed......)

-my tortoise was cold so I wrapped it in a duvet.

I could go on........... and on........ and on........

However, I'll keep on spending hours telling people about how tortoises are basically just mobile solar panels..........and keep cursing Blue Peter for causing millions of tortoises to die.....

Re: Tortoise Hibernation

Tmac — Fri, 20 Sep 2013 13:18:40 GMT

Thanks Gillian, I came across your name on the British Chelonian Group site so hoped you would reply!

I was concerned that she thought the tortoise hadn't grown at all this year.

Not sure about the travelling - anyone know the legalities? She said she had a "certificate" and paperwork but we never completed anything....

I'm not sure entirely re the environment etc as this was an add-on to a double consult but she did mention he loves his heat ?lamp?

Sorry, I probably should have asked more but the appointments were not about the tortoise - you know what it's like.

I will endeavour to find out some more as I know her personally a bit too.

Thanks for input so far.

Re: Tortoise Hibernation

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 20 Sep 2013 12:56:20 GMT

ok... here goes..... I'll bullet point as otherwise I could be here all day...

if the tortoise has been living permanently outdoors in Scotland then it will have been too cold. A few weeks in France (illegal travelling..???) will not have helped that much. Tortoises living in this country need to be kept in an artificially heated and lit environment unless it is warm enough for someone to sit in the shade in shorts and T shirt..!!! Just because the sun is shining doesn't mean there is either enough heat or UVb. Enclosures can take many forms, but, basically, the air temperature needs to be a minimum of 20C and there needs to be a toasty warm basking spot - approx 35C. Ideally you want good ventilation (but not at the expense of sufficient heat, as can happen with tortoise tables), low humidity, a decent temperature gradient with warm and hot areas, and a minimum night time temp of about 17C. They also need some lighting that emits UVb light.
Food should be weeds, vegetables and multivit/calcium supplements. Salad = bad! Some tortoise pellets are ok but they should be having fibre as well.
Hibernation is not something to be done lightly. The temperature (approx 5C) and environment has to be monitored constantly and at this age I wouldn't hibernate for more than 3-4 weeks, so the tortoise should still be in a vivarium for most of the winter. Tortoises doesn't need to hibernate.
If, at 4, it hasn't grown in 12 months then there is something wrong. It is probably environmental but best to get a vet check if possible.

For advice, The Tortoise Trust and The British Chelonia Group have excellent care sheets on their websites.

Good luck!