Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

James Laidlaw — Sat, 21 Sep 2013 10:59:33 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Strange about the increased reactions suggestion. We as a practice are drowning under Chihuahuas and I cannot remember a single one having a reaction. Most of them are treated as dogs not handbag contents so are as much at risk as the bigger dogs around here.

[/quote]

"This product is associated with as many or more adverse reactions than occur for any other vaccine. In particular, veterinarians are advised of reports of acute anaphylaxis in toy breeds following administration of leptospirosis vaccines. Routine vaccination of toy breeds should only be considered in dogs known to have a very high risk of exposure"

I must admit I haven't seen an anaphylactic reaction in a dog from vaccination ever. But it's obviously documented and worth discussing with owners - if not least of all to cover your own backside if anything does happen. This information is freely available if someone had a problem and then went searching for it.

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Bob Russell — Sat, 21 Sep 2013 10:45:55 GMT

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

James Laidlaw — Sat, 21 Sep 2013 08:09:14 GMT

[quote user="GrooveJet"]Although we've drifted slightly off topic, this is an interesting direction: we're based in the midlands of England, use the 10 week finish, and have not seen any typical Parvo cases in years. The two HGE cases I mentioned in the OP were 3 and 4 years old, and vaccinated recently. I did woner about Parvo. I've never heard of Toy breeds being more susceptible to Lepto than any other either, I thought farm-dogs more likely to get it. Perhaps I'm not good at recognising the symptoms, but I can't say I've ever diagnosed Lepto. Nor Distemper or CAV for that matter....

[/quote]

It's not that toy breeds are more susceptible to lepto - it's that they are more likely to suffer reactions to the vaccination for lepto. It's all written in the WSAVA link.

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 20 Sep 2013 23:43:22 GMT

I'd guess we see lepto on average once or twice per year. They tend to glow yellow and are easy to spot............

More lepto than parvo (maybe 3or 4 years since seen a parvo dog)

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Miriam Lodewyks — Fri, 20 Sep 2013 23:36:52 GMT

Although we've drifted slightly off topic, this is an interesting direction: we're based in the midlands of England, use the 10 week finish, and have not seen any typical Parvo cases in years. The two HGE cases I mentioned in the OP were 3 and 4 years old, and vaccinated recently. I did woner about Parvo. I've never heard of Toy breeds being more susceptible to Lepto than any other either, I thought farm-dogs more likely to get it. Perhaps I'm not good at recognising the symptoms, but I can't say I've ever diagnosed Lepto. Nor Distemper or CAV for that matter....

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Braden Collins — Fri, 20 Sep 2013 09:49:25 GMT

I agree with Martins approach. I worked in a clinic which changed to the Nobivac early finish - and we saw 5 cases of parvo in dogs that had had a 10-12 week final vax within the space of a few months. All 5 dogs were 9-12 months old so didn't have a chance to get the 15 month booster. The other clinics in town that stuck with the 16 week finish had no cases of break-down. That clinic changed back to the 16 week finish and despite parvo still being prevalent have had no more cases. Apparently in Australia 1 in 30 parvo cases had an early finish vaccine at 10-12 weeks. Too many to ignore as I have never seen one with a 16 week finish.

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 19 Sep 2013 16:06:09 GMT

I actively encourage socialisation, puppy parties are so useful but my nurses are not very pro-active in that department presently, other pups and dogs people know - in their homes and gardens, carry down the road to the park and indirect contact with other dogs - all great. The only rule we have is don't put your puppy on the ground outside until 2 weeks after the second vaccine anything else goes. Although I don't believe that a 10 week finish is reliable enough to give long term immunity, I'd be pretty happy for the short term certainly up to 16 weeks when I would recommend a 3rd shot in all breeds if they had the 2nd at 10 wks. If they don't want to listen to this 'they pays their money and takes their chances'!

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

James Laidlaw — Thu, 19 Sep 2013 09:12:21 GMT

8, 10 and 16 weeks, lepto is only primarily of concern in toy breeds. So worth discussing risks to allow client to make an informed decision about delaying lepto until bigger, dependant on risk/benefit in your area. Have never seen a reaction to lepto in toy dogs personally though. Socialisation to start from 11 weeks usually. That's what I do anyway.

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Andy Elliott — Thu, 19 Sep 2013 09:04:00 GMT

Ditto Bob Russell. We see clusters of these cases and they almost always test negative for Parvo and turn up nothing on faecal incl salmonella and campylobacter. The good news is that with supportive care and IVFT they almost always pull through.

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Dagmar Steele — Thu, 19 Sep 2013 08:08:03 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Thompson"]

I agree with previous comments about later finishes for puppies being more beneficial from the point of view of immunity to infectious diseases but, given that the most common reasons for euthanasia of dogs are behavioural problems I am interested to know how others balance the need for early socialisation with finishing a vaccination course at 14-16 weeks. Do you let puppies socialise before finishing the vaccination course?

[/quote]

Yes I do. Studies show that young dogs socialising are not more at risk to contract CPV than those who don't.

http://www.jaaha.org/content/49/2/95.abstract

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Stephen Thompson — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 21:52:31 GMT

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Nicola Cole — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 20:54:46 GMT

If finishing puppy vaccine course at 16w.o. are people doing 2 or 3 injections in primary course? And at what ages? Also, from looking at the WSAVA guidelines it advises not vaccinating against lepto unless high risk-are most people still including lepto in routine vaccination protocol or is this changing as well?

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 15:52:03 GMT

Sadly commercial interests outweigh best practice and manufacturers (and vets) who can sell a younger finish date perceive themselves to have a commercial advantage, sadly they seem not to worry that it is at disadvantage to their patients. Money talks.

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

James Laidlaw — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 12:48:35 GMT

WSAVA guidelines agree with you Martin. Final at 14-16 weeks (we do 16) and then full for first annual booster.

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 09:39:02 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]10 week finish protects most rather than all[/quote]

Some time ago, Intervet suggested to us that around 5% of pups are not protected by 10 week DHP, not sure if this was based on evidence.

[/quote] Don't get me going on this subject. Intervet are not alone and there was plenty of evidence when I started digging that up to 20% of vaccines completed at 10 weeks failed and that manufacturers accept this but hide behind the catch-all statement in their data sheets that a few animals may fail to respond adequately thereby deflecting blame as if it is failing in the animal's immune system rather than a failure in the efficacy of the vaccine. I've said it all so many times before and wrote articles and letters in the veterinary press on this backed up by no less than Hal Thompson and I can't believe much has changed, I can't be bothered repeating it all again because nobody is listening or interested in changing the status quo.

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

James Laidlaw — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 07:47:18 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

Where did they originate? If puppy farm dogs, initial vaccination may have been done by farmer with illegally imported,and improperly stored Irish vaccine. No point in boosters, if initialvaccination course not done properly.

[/quote]

In a dog over 10 weeks a single Nobivac DHP will give a year's protection. The primary vaccine protocol for dogs over 10 weeks only includes a single DHP, repeated in a year, then every 3 years.

[/quote]

That is what the datasheet says but there are plenty of us that have seen apparent failures where final puppy dose is given at 10 weeks old. WSAVA guidelines do not recommend this! Pretty independent expert panel IMO.

10 week finish protects most rather than all.

[/quote]

www.wsava.org/.../New Puppy Owner Vaccination Guidelines May 2013_0.pdf

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Mark Holmes — Wed, 18 Sep 2013 05:46:18 GMT

[quote user="GrooveJet"]Did wonder about Canine Seasonal Illness, but unclear what exactly that is. As for the HGE, doesn't that just describe the symptom? I've had a "string-FB" and an intussusception in the past that continued to pass faeces for a while, until it gradually turned into a similar foetid outpouring (at which point the animals were finally presented and promptly opened), hence the worry. Coccidiosis is a good idea I hadn't considered, as must be hookworm, I guess. Anyone been able to confirm any other uncommon infectious agents?

[/quote] HGE does just describe the symptoms but isn't that the cars with most conditions. Gastroenteritis, pancreatitis, dermatitis all simply mean "inflammation of X" with no aetiological relevance.

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

nikki — Tue, 17 Sep 2013 21:11:56 GMT

2 in 6 months? I can see 2 of those in a day on a bad day - usually a Sunday or a bank holiday. I rarely xray them and have never ex-lapped one. Sometimes we send faecal samples but have never found a diagnosis. Tend to presume it's some kind of virus. Normally respond to IVFT, MTZ, anti-emetics and gastro-protectants. Most go home within 48hrs but have had the odd one take longer, usually older dogs. Can remember one fatal one in the past few years and that was a very old dog.

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Rob Davis — Tue, 17 Sep 2013 20:03:10 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]10 week finish protects most rather than all[/quote]

Some time ago, Intervet suggested to us that around 5% of pups are not protected by 10 week DHP, not sure if this was based on evidence.

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Bob Russell — Tue, 17 Sep 2013 15:25:14 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

[/quote]

In a dog over 10 weeks a single Nobivac DHP will give a year's protection. The primary vaccine protocol for dogs over 10 weeks only includes a single DHP, repeated in a year, then every 3 years.

[/quote]

10 week finish protects most rather than all.

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 17 Sep 2013 14:29:51 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

[/quote]

In a dog over 10 weeks a single Nobivac DHP will give a year's protection. The primary vaccine protocol for dogs over 10 weeks only includes a single DHP, repeated in a year, then every 3 years.

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 17 Sep 2013 13:21:19 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]The fact that the owners refused further investigation means they're the sort that are most likely to buy puppy farm (cheap) pups in the 1st place.[/quote] Bit of a sweeping statement Wynne albeit one that nonetheless is probably true, But puppy farm doesn't necessarily mean cheap just rip-off.

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Bob Russell — Tue, 17 Sep 2013 13:20:57 GMT

We used to get a regular stream (pun intended!) of HGE cases at this time of year (New Forest). They came back negative for parvo.

These dogs were often very ill and a few died even with aggressive therapy. Always happened at the time one of the local canine associations had their annual show nearby.

Not sure that the 'seasonal canine illness' is anything new as we were seeing these 15-20 years ago. When someone identifies the cause(s) I will be a little more convinced it is a specific disease rather than a collection of dogs with HGE at the same time!

10 week finishes and dubious vaccines always puts parvo at the top of my differentials even if it cannot be proved.

I tended to blame Coronavirus and Clostridia as guilty parties but time makes me far less convinced!

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 17 Sep 2013 12:09:25 GMT

The fact that the owners refused further investigation means they're the sort that are most likely to buy puppy farm (cheap) pups in the 1st place.

Wynne

Re: Canine Haemorrhagic Diarrhoea

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 17 Sep 2013 12:02:02 GMT

[quote user="Melanie Illingworth"]I've come across a couple of similar cases that have cultured Clostridia on faecal analysis.

[/quote] I had a GSD that got gastric bloat and HGE every couple of months, first time we though its was a GDV and opened up, it was just gassy bloat but we did gastropexy anyway. Second time I looked a bit further and found it had pyloric stenosis and I dissected out some tissue that seemed to be forming a restrictve band which turned out to be a leiomyoma, third time it had pancreatitis, fourth time they had it bumped. Each occasion 2 days of intensive symptomatic treatment worked, each occasion it had clostridia in the culture, each time it had appropriate antibiotic therapy. I'm always doubtful in these cases that it is the primary pathogen.

PS it had already had a splenectomy due to a ruptured splenic benign haematoma and it was rescued from an abusive home...didn't have a lot of luck really!