Buying an ultrasound machine

Re: Buying an ultrasound machine

Mike Martin — Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:57:15 GMT

http://www.vetsurgeon.org/media/p/8772.aspx

I'd recommend this machine for Vet practice and its a good price.

Re: Buying an ultrasound machine

macvet — Wed, 20 Jan 2010 22:30:55 GMT

Hi ,

Dont know if this is of any use but BCF doing leasing agreements - prob their Honda 2100 might be in your price range and aat least you get a nice new shiny one! Checkout their website under BCF enable for different options.

Good luck!

Re: Buying an ultrasound machine

Mark Frost — Mon, 18 Jan 2010 15:38:13 GMT

To resurrect an old thread rather than start a new one, we are in a similar position now in needing to replace an old machine, we have a few demos booked and saw a couple of SIUI machines today. Requirement is for general GP usage, abdo, basic cardiac but in reality for the price nothing more than basic cardiac will be affordable. Portability only needs to be able to fit on the work surface and able to be carried downstairs but doesn't need to go off site, however we don't have space for a trolley based machine. Budget is in the region of 5k, and we realise that won't get a fantastic machine but it won't be difficult to improve on the old one. (Should add that I am an assistant so whilst I can help the bosses with an opinion, budget isn't up to me!!)

Re: Buying an ultrasound machine

macvet — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 22:56:14 GMT

Good luck with the new machine, now that you have a machine that can give you a good image then the more you will use it and learn to trust it. I have found you just have to practice, practice, practice and the more you use it the more potential situations/cases you find a use for them. I think modular CPD is the way to go thus allowing more practice in between modules rather than trying to take everything in in 1 or 2 days.

Angus Macpherson

Re: Buying an ultrasound machine

Laurence Webb — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 22:37:58 GMT

Thanks for all the input.

We've opted for the Megas over the Caris. in the end there was no cost saving on having colour doppler or not anyway so that wasn't an issue. The image on these was superior to any of the other machines within our budget (up to £10000) except for perhaps the GE Logic (which we ruled out on the basis that we would have had to build a new room to fit it in). One of the main factors betwen chosing between the Cais and Megas was the mechanical probes on the former as there wasn't too much difference in image between the two.

We are having a phased array and microconvex probe to try out for a week or two but will only end up buying 1. As present I favour the phased array probe as it did a decent all round job whilst the microconvex didn't work well at depth and I could forsee frustration when trying to look at a 30kg+ dog's liver but more chance to try them out should sort that out for us.

Our present charges for ultrasound are about £40 for a single organ (preg scan, bladder, liver) and £70 for an abdominal scan, but I think that increasing them to around the price Angus describes would be sensible as the new machine will provide much greater information. If CPD and experience increases the usefulness further then I could justify higher charging.

Possibly a low charge for ultrasound guided cystocentesis may be an idea too - just today I had a dog sedated that I really wanted a cysto sample for culture from but it's bladder was too empty to do it blind so we had the choice of taking a catheterised sample or doing it concious later on in the day once the bladder had filled up, which is never entirely satisfactory.

Re: Buying an ultrasound machine

macvet — Wed, 21 Jan 2009 22:11:31 GMT

Just some more thoughts on scanners. I have used BCF'S basic Honda 2000 with curvilinear probe( 5-7.5-9 mhz) for the past 3-4 years. Always been v impressed with service/backup. I have found this machine to be surprisingly versatile though rarely change the frequency of the probe from the 7.5 mhz setting and have diagnosed pericardial effusions in GSD's, HCM in cats, detached retinas in dogs with cataracts,otitis media, bladder calculi in Guinea pigs......Not so good for more detailed stuff like imaging adrenals/ abdominal lymph nodes but pound for pound v useful in a general practice setting . Good re portability as well ie able to move easily into consult room for preg scans in bitches etc with owner present.

Re Mike Martins question re charges - approx £35 *** preg scan, 40-50 for say scanning bladder and approx £100 for abdominal or heart/chest scan is reasonable given time involvement. Hope this is of help.

Angus Macpherson

Re: Buying an ultrasound machine

Anonymous — Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:00:39 GMT

Hi all...

For general practice, safe to expect abdominal as the majoriity of what you will be interested in. Realistically, bladder and kidneys, liver and spleen are your front runners for requested scans. Good luck looking at pancreas on a sick one (OUCH!) and adrenals you are more likely to see on a patient one not in a fully healthful state. That said, a great linear probe can be your best friend for most of those cases, great for bowel definition. Micro convex also very useful for those types of general cases. 3-7mhz or 9-4 mhz ideal for this.

Cardiac - if I might offer a suggestion...Take a peek because you can but don;t expect to get really in depth. You just need to identify normal vs abnormal. You are going to send to Mike anyways if it's abnormal and he will do a complete cardiac evaluation far beyond yours as it's his area of interest! Just look for general size and heartbeat, fluid or none!

Any info you can gather is great, even if things appear normal! It is always more information than you had previously and you are the skilled professional to find it, not the owner!

For machines, consider luggable (laptop like) vs portable (cart-based). Philips is great at being feature rich and wde variety of transducers and GE has more models than Kraft has cheese! New vs refurb'd entirely up to you so long as the vendor has been around for a while and can support you when you need them..That may be the most cricitcal concern over what you buy, that is, who get purchase from.

animalinsides.com has been compiling some very useful info on purchasing diagnostic imaging equipment. Great info, unbiased and honest...

best of luck!

Re: Buying an ultrasound machine

Mike Martin — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:21:34 GMT

Generally, phased array probes (if the correct frequency for the job) will give better near-field imaging than mechanical. The mechanical probes live only a few years - so I would avoid them. The Megas might give you more flexibility to buy more probes.

I kept my old machine as a back-up in the event of a break down and also its more portable for quick jobs, eg ultrasound guided biopsies.

So out of interest, what sort of cases do you think you will you ultrasound most? Or does anyone else have experience from VetGP practice on this? And how much does everyone charge?

Re: Buying an ultrasound machine

Laurence Webb — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 12:28:03 GMT

Yep Cat scans, and the boss brought in his black labrador so we could do some additional Lab tests too.

We've looked at machines from BCF, MIUS and Imotek and it looks like the Eosate Caris or Megas from Imotek are the favourites so far. They have fairly similar performance. We did look at an ex-human GE Logiq from MIUS but, apart from it's age, it was just too big to fit into the appropriate room.

The Caris is brand new but has mechanical heads, which I believe are more prone to failure (though cheaper to replace) and gives us the ability to opt in or out of colour dopper. The image from the 5-7.5 probe was good on my cat's heart and kidneys and also an a labrador's liver at 14cm depth

The Megas is 2nd hand (built in 2006 and sold in 2007, used be a veterinary cardiologist's...Mike Martin's old machine maybe!) but new enough for the cost of parts not to be hugely different to a brand new machine. It comes with colour dopper and has electronic probes. We tried a microconvex and phased array probe on it and I found the microconvex nicer for detail close to the probe but the phased array wasn't significantly worse for close work, certainly better at depths of >10cm and gets between ribs better so at this stage I'd err towards that probe if we went for that machine. Compared to the Caris the image at depth is similar but possibly slightly poorer on a cat's heart

The cost of each machine is similar if we went for 1 probe (at present I don't think we can justify 2 probes for our requirements) and both come with a year's warranty.

So now we're trying to decide which machine suits our needs better (or which has the drawbacks) - the brand new machine with a mechanical probe but maybe a slightly better all-round image (and maybe a small cost saving if we don't go for Doppler) or the 2nd hand with an electronic probe where the image may be marginally worse but should be less prone to failure and has Doppler in already.

I doubt anyone can say which is best, more just mulling it over out loud unless someone has any strong opinions.

Thanks for the advice!

Re: Buying an ultrasound machine

Niall Taylor — Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:01:54 GMT

[quote user="Laurence Webb"]I'm going to bring in my cat to scan [/quote]

Aha, doing cat scans already !

One thing I would say when looking at US machines is to be extremely wary of reconditioned, ex human machines, the repair costs can be horrendous - we had to replace a printed circuit board in ours recently at a cost of £2,400 for the part alone. Make sure you find out exactly how much the most expensive PCB would be to replace before you put pen to cheque.

Cheers,

Niall

Re: Buying an ultrasound machine

Mike Martin — Mon, 15 Dec 2008 09:19:59 GMT

Your don't need Doppler to diagnose the common adult heart diseases such as DCM or MVD. So buying a machine without Doppler would be fine. But I'm not sure how much that would save? Potentially is there someone in the practice that might take echo beyond the basics (or potential new employee)? If definately not, then fine. You need Doppler very little for abdomens I believe.

Re: Buying an ultrasound machine

Laurence Webb — Fri, 12 Dec 2008 09:26:21 GMT

Mike, thanks very much for the info.

BCF are bringing a few machines next week to play with and I'm going to bring in my cat to scan his heart and trying to get a big fat dog in to look at it's abdomen - just thinking of polite way to say to someone 'your dog is so grossly obese that it would be a good subject to stretch an untrasound machine's capabilities!'

Obviously colour doppler is essential to the work that you do. Is it going to be very important if we're aiming mainly at abdomens and basic cardiology? There's obviously an extra cost in having it but would it be a false economy to get a machine without it? I would still expect to refer cardiology cases that aren't obvious mitral valves or DCMs.

Re: Buying an ultrasound machine

Mike Martin — Thu, 11 Dec 2008 09:11:18 GMT

Its always difficult advising on ultrasound purchase. But I am baffled by why some practices spend £25K on a digital CR radiography system but won't spend more than £10K on an ultrasound system. Excuse my preamble waffle :)

As a general guide the quality of the 2D image is the most important aspect and this is proportional to cost. So my £100K machine gives a superior image in resolution and frame rate than the local practice's £10K machine. So you need to have machines on demo, preferably two at the same time for side by side comparison of the image quality.

Probe choice is important. For hearts - I feel you need two sector probes, one at 7.5-5MHz (but others my suggest 10-7.5MHz) and one at 3.5-2.5MHz (or possibly 5-3.5MHz if Doppler is less important). For abdomens (not my field here) - I believe a linear probe is best and usually around 10-7.5Mhz for most dogs and cats, but very large dogs may require 7-5Mhz). Some I believe prefer a curvilinear probe. But ask the experts at the next imaging course you attend. Don't buy before attending a course, but go armed with a short list to pick their brains.

As regards machines - I'm not familar with them all, only what I have used and seen. My 'top of the market' human machine (GE Vivid 7) I bought from BCF and I would be happy to recommend buying from them for their service or support. Unfortunately I am not familar with the quality of their entry level machines. http://www.bcftechnology.com/ultrasound_products

My previous one was from Imotec and again their service and support was good. I know their Estoate and Mylab ranges and these are excellent value for money. The Mylab ~£20K and the Estoates now half that I believe (eg. Caris and Megas) - these are all good machines with good 2D image resolution and frame rates. http://www.imotek.com/search_product_catalogue.asp?category=Veterinary%20Ultrasound

There are a lot out there to chose from, but you would not be far wrong to buy one of the above. There is a huge benefit to your diagnostic armoury with ultrasound, more for abdomens in G'Practice I believe.

Hope this helps a little.

Mike