Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Rebecca MacMillan — Mon, 22 Jul 2013 16:10:15 GMT

Yeah tricky one, it may have just been post op complications and general bad luck as Michael says, especially as the ooh service had kept her in overnight for IVFT and monitoring - so she was being well cared for following surgery. But I appreciate the other points about her general lack of care. The trouble is that she comes across as a genuinely well meaning nice lady, so it's hard to be too harsh on her.

> Basically she took a gamble that her elderly dog wouldn't get pregnant on one accidental mating - that gamble didn't pay off. (Alizin leaflet even quotes that up to 50% of matings don't result in pregnancy)

> Then she got emotionally involved seeing the puppies at 5 or 6 weeks on our (amazing!) new ultrasound scanner and therefore didn't feel it was right to euth the puppies (you could see them waving their paws around and heart beats etc, highly emotive stuff).

> Then I (based in part on the success stories I read here) allowed her to let nature take it's course, rather than leaping in with invasive elective C-section.

> Then she failed to recognise that the bitch was struggling in labour - looking at the notes it says she was initially straining but not with strong contractions, then several hours later there was green discharge, then she strained again and stopped. So even when we told her what to look out for she had either forgotten or misinterpreted it. On exam the vet found green brown foetid discharge and could get a finger to a puppy's tail.

So basically it's a catalogue of errors rather than cruelty per say, but I do still get where everyone is coming from...

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Virginia Campbell — Mon, 22 Jul 2013 13:08:19 GMT

[quote user="Rebecca Benge"]Now she has a huge bill, the dog suffered (and ultimately passed away) and they now have two puppies to hand rear.[/quote]

ah well, if she doesn't bother worming and parvo vaxing the pups and flogs them off on Gumtree at 5 weeks old, she can pay for the Welpi. As Mark Rowlands would say - le sigh.

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Virginia Campbell — Mon, 22 Jul 2013 13:05:03 GMT

[quote user="Rebecca Benge"]

Unfortunately I have a tale of woe to counteract all the positive stories.

This dog was seen by our ooh provider and had to have a C-section. They removed 4 puppies, 2 dead and 2 alive. The mother died the next day

So sad really, as this owner should have just paid for the alizin injection in the first place instead of chancing her luck. Now she has a huge bill, the dog suffered (and ultimately passed away) and they now have two puppies to hand rear.

[/quote]

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Utlendigur — Sun, 21 Jul 2013 23:21:06 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I have to say that I do this this as one of those unfortunate incidents that happen to pets when a back is turned for a minute. Would we be judging the same if the dog had slipped its lead and been hit by a car?[/quote]

I have to say I'm with JHL on this one. It isn't turning a back for a minute, it's systematically ignoring all veterinary advice over weeks, presumably due to a wish to save money

Owner declined alizin injections which could have aborted the pregnancy with minimal risk

Owner declined spay in early pregnancy which would have been safer

Owner decided against elective caesar nearer term

Owner ignored advice to seek help if labour not progessing and left bitch straining for ? 12hrs before contacting the OOH provider

That isn't bad luck, it's stupidity verging on cruelty

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Virginia Campbell — Sun, 21 Jul 2013 23:16:10 GMT

Michael, I think he meant the fact that the owners watched her trying to whelp all day when they had strict instructions to bring her in if things weren't moving on.

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 21 Jul 2013 23:06:04 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]Nope. I'd go a lot further and put it down to a sh*te owner who ought to be facing charges right now.[/quote]

JHL - has Wynne nicked your log in details?

I have to say that I do this this as one of those unfortunate incidents that happen to pets when a back is turned for a minute. Would we be judging the same if the dog had slipped its lead and been hit by a car?

Recently had a bitch have 4 puppies and then nothing for 48 hours when she had another 3 puppies, 2 of which were alive!

I have known many older bitches go on and whelp normally - see the other examples on here. I remember one border collie that only had 2 teats left after a mammary strip on 1 side and a lumpectomy on the other who raised 3 puppies at 13 years old IIRC.

I have also done caesarians on bitches with dead, stinking, gassy puppies (spay same time) and they have done fine.

Still think this is manly just bad luck.

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

james herriot lied — Sun, 21 Jul 2013 21:51:02 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Thanks Rebecca. Really think it is one to chalk up to bad luck.

[/quote]

Nope. I'd go a lot further and put it down to a sh*te owner who ought to be facing charges right now.

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 21 Jul 2013 21:34:42 GMT

Thanks Rebecca. Really think it is one to chalk up to bad luck.

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Rebecca MacMillan — Sun, 21 Jul 2013 20:01:14 GMT

According to the brief notes from our ooh provider, she didn't recover well after the GA, was very slow to come round. Then the next day she had a temperature of 40.1C, pale mm, very lethargic etc. I can't remember whether the o decided to euth in the end or whether the dog passed away (sorry I'm at home at the mo and don't have the notes in front of me!). I don't think she had any blood work done before the GA, which is often the case before emergency C-sections I guess.

I also believe that she had initially started labour in the morning and wasn't presented to them until the evening, when she had green discharge present, and a puppy could be felt in the canal on vaginal exam. So it's possible that the delay in her being seen didn't help matters (especially in the case of the two dead puppies!). This was despite her bringing the dog in for a check up with us 24-48 hrs prior to that and being told by my colleague explicitly to seek help if the labour wasn't progressing etc etc.

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 21 Jul 2013 01:45:45 GMT

Rebecca - why did the bitch die?

I can think of loads of similar cases that did well.

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Virginia Campbell — Fri, 19 Jul 2013 22:25:02 GMT

Thanks for the update. Poor dog, I was expecting good news. It's good to know what happens in the end to the cases posted and you have supplied us with a cautionary tale for the future if necessary.

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Rebecca MacMillan — Fri, 19 Jul 2013 20:55:26 GMT

[quote user="MVSVets"]

From the OP information this bitch was mated 18th May so will be due to whelp a litter any day now.

[/quote]

I am the original poster

So despite everyone's happy stories, mine ended pretty badly. Such is life, it's just such a shame, that's all...

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Rebecca MacMillan — Fri, 19 Jul 2013 17:32:47 GMT

Unfortunately I have a tale of woe to counteract all the positive stories.

This dog was seen by our ooh provider and had to have a C-section. They removed 4 puppies, 2 dead and 2 alive. The mother died the next day

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 19 Jun 2013 16:59:39 GMT

Have 5 stars from me Mark even though no-body seemed to appreciate my joke!

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Mark Holmes — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:41:44 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

My Mother-in-Law asked me to look at her aged (12+) Staffie bitch one night - blood and mucky stuff discharging from vulva, bit depressed. I assumed pyo and said I'd take her to work with me the next day and spey her. Next morning there was no need. It wasn't a pyo but a single huge puppy. Father must have been their German Shepherd guard dog who was the only male dog on the farm. Pup is now about 8yo and very well. Mother was none the worse and lived another year or so.

Also had a similar tale with a collie last year - maiden collie aged 12 got covered by neighbour's dog. Had litter of 5 - mother and pups all fine. Serendipity was such that the dog was a pedigree border collie too so they ended up pedigree pups.

The funniest one was a farm collie bitch who had only one eye and aged 11 had an accident which meant that I had to amputate a hindleg. About 18mths later I saw her name on the appointment list and assumed she'd come to the end of the road. not so. She'd been mated and they wanted an Alizin jab. Must have been an odd sort of dog that fancied a three-legged one-eyed geriatric bitch!

[/quote] Sounds like one of Wayne Roony's antics.

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 19:30:47 GMT

I wouldn't radiograph anything unless there was a clinical indication. I don't feel this case does.

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Rebecca MacMillan — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 16:48:03 GMT

All the stories so far sound quite hopeful! I'm keen not to do anything invasive and just let nature takes its course, but having never had a bitch this old - I just wanted to check I was doing the right thing!

Hmmm... didn't think about that with regards the xray. I don't think that's the case.... but you never know!

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 16:38:44 GMT

Wren, your blind three legged dog reminds me of the joke about a gold miner who lost his leg in an accident and was unemployed. He was drowning his sorrows in the bar bemoaning his fortune saying no-one wants him now, 'who would want a one-legged gold-digger'? A fellow drinker says, 'why don't you call Paul McCartney'.

PS I've also seen a couple of maiden bitches of similar vintage, they whelped with no problems and were fantastic mothers

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 16:29:52 GMT

[quote user="Rebecca Benge"]The other thing is that the owner is quite keen to know the exact number of puppies, so that she knows how many to expect during whelping esp if the bitch runs into any issues[/quote]

Playing Devil's Advocate here, is this the case or is she actually trying to sell the pups before they're born?

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 16:28:31 GMT

[quote user="Wren"] Must have been an odd sort of dog that fancied a three-legged one-eyed geriatric bitch![/quote]

All the others could run away

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Wren — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 16:14:56 GMT

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Bob Russell — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:40:02 GMT

My previous border collie was one of 12 born to a 14 year old bitch (or was it 14 to a 12 yr old?)!

The owners had tried to get her mated for years (she had a litter at 18 months old) but being a true collie would have nothing to do with the boys. Owners duly gave up, stopped worrying when she came in season. Low and behold she decided to have a fling!

All went smoothly, they were massive puppies by 8 weeks old and everyone was happy!

Not always a problem but I would be more concerned if the bitch had not had a previous litter.

Re: Pregnant 12 year old bitch

Anne Seawright — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 15:33:00 GMT

My only experience of older mum's was in a 12 yr old rottie who was also accidentally mated and who had had puppies when younger. Owners were 'breeders' and so wanted to continue with her pregnancy. Father was their stud lab (who was cryptorchid, but that is another story!). She had a long labour and ended up in the hospital overnight having been given oxytocin, glucose etc by my boss and she eventually had a litter of 7 pups. She had no mammary development and didnt show any signs of trying to mother the pups so the breeders hand reared them which resulted in 4 dying in the next 2 days and the remaining 3 being signed over to the practice. One of the wonderful nurses took them on and 2 survived and are now 7 years old. Not sure whether the issues (other than the obvious 'breeder' ones) could be put down to her age but she had apparently been a great mum when she was younger.