Latvian puppy

Re: Latvian puppy

Cat Henstridge — Tue, 18 Jun 2013 09:52:30 GMT

Clearly there is an issue with puppies coming in on dodgy passports. We should all sign this!

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/47539

Re: Latvian puppy

Stephen Courtney — Mon, 17 Jun 2013 22:05:40 GMT

Anthony you are right. Cats usually do get furious rabies, my bad.

The last cat i saw like that wasn't rabid though, he was just a complete sh1t....

They can still get the dumb form, and the dumb form can progress from the furious. As most cats haven't read their operator manual at the best of times, I suppose the best this is to always keep the possibility, however remote, somewhere in mind...

Re: Latvian puppy

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 17 Jun 2013 17:14:43 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]Rabid cats usually get the dumb form and we'd probably put all the other weird feline neuro possibilities far higher up the DD list than rabies[/quote]

As far as I can remember from my university teaching, cats usually get the furious form and get it quickly, which is why it is harder to import a rabid cat, because you usually notice it quicker than a dog with the dumb form.

Re: Latvian puppy

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 17 Jun 2013 15:42:35 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]I'm sure lots of cats get hold of the occasional bat, especially sick ones. I doubt the rabid ones feel that perky, but can't recall if they jsut carry the virus or actually get sick from it.[/quote] A quick search of Dr Google, the first reliable reference came up with this: 'However, in general, mortality in bats infected via a natural route appears to be low, and seroconversion occurs in many of those that survive'. Most of the references appear to relate to Australia - seems to be a major deal there and they're even more proud of their rabies free status than we are. Food for thought indeed.

Re: Latvian puppy

Stephen Courtney — Mon, 17 Jun 2013 15:18:35 GMT

Distinguishing Lyssavirus from Rabies is a political stance based on epidemiological peculiarities of the strain of rabies carried by bats. It's still rabies, and we have had it here in the UK all along.

I'm sure lots of cats get hold of the occasional bat, especially sick ones. I doubt the rabid ones feel that perky, but can't recall if they jsut carry the virus or actually get sick from it.

If Lyssavirus really was a risk I'm sure the odd rabid cat would turn up. Assuming it was diagnosed correctly, and there's no guarantee of that. Rabid cats usually get the dumb form and we'd probably put all the other weird feline neuro possibilities far higher up the DD list than rabies. Food for thought....

Re: Latvian puppy

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 17 Jun 2013 14:38:36 GMT

[quote user="CatherineThomas"]I wasn't sure whether to report it or not but I figured that it was the right thing to do and now it is upto trading standards to work out if there is a problem with it or not. The owners were aware that I was going to report it and I did mention that they could potentially decide that the puppy needs to go into quarantine. SO hopefully they will be understanding.[/quote] You had an obligation to report it if you were suspicious, the owners have no choice but to be understanding, if they obstructed you in any way they could presumably be guilty of obstructing the course of justice. Don't feel sorry for them their problem is the result of their own stupidity - Latvian connection or not they should have realised this wan't a good idea.

Off topic slightly I had a call over the weekend from someone who's cat had caught a bat, at first I thought it was going to be an injured wildlife call but it turned out the bat was dead and he was concerned the cat might have caught rabies if the bat had bitten it. I suggested it was unlikely but given that rabies virus by another name (Lyssavirus) is endemic in Daubenton's Bat in the UK and people have contracted clinical rabies from this source, perhaps things don't have to come from Spain, Latvia or anywhere else more exotic than the local bat roost!

Re: Latvian puppy

Charlotte Marshall — Sun, 16 Jun 2013 22:53:41 GMT

Would a rabies titre help at all? Could you be sure that the antibodies measured were from vaccination rather than incubating disease?

Also the titres drop relatively quickly after vaccination, I've had to revaccinate a dog before for this reason. (The vaccine companies say that the main protection is from cellular immunity.)

Re: Latvian puppy

mariette asselbergs — Sun, 16 Jun 2013 21:34:17 GMT

If you have any doubts that this puppy was either not vaccinated or vaccinated at less than 3 months, I think the least you need to do is explain the new owners that they are directly at risk and would be the first in trouble if this puppy would develop rabies. the wise thing to do would be to vaccinate it again against rabies (2 weeks time between the distemper vaccination and the rabies vaccination). They should also be aware of symptoms to look out for (basically any symptoms of lethargy, change in behaviour, drooling, problems eating/drinking, neurological symptoms) and if all goes well for 30 days after your vaccination they could be sure nothing terrible will happen anymore. If the owners are in any way sensible they should accept to do this.

Mariette

Re: Latvian puppy

Stephen Courtney — Sat, 15 Jun 2013 17:26:19 GMT

It is totally bizarre that an organisation like Trading Standards has ever been involved with illegal importation of dogs and cats, yet it is historic, and they STILL have no idea what to do in cases where the law has been broken. during the time of compulsory quarantine they did at least seize animals and put them in quarantine, and would actually pay for the quarantine if the owner wouldn't - but now that the rules have changed it seems they haven't a clue.

I still maintain that the issue is not the change in rules, but the indifference shown by those that should be supervising the new system.

I am glad the old system has been replaced with something far more sensible and humane -quarantine was awful - but am uneasy as it becomes more apparent that the system is not being supervised properly, and no one is properly in charge of it.

Re: Latvian puppy

James Laidlaw — Sat, 15 Jun 2013 17:04:39 GMT

Best place for trading standards to look would be where they bought the puppy from.

Re: Latvian puppy

CatherineThomas — Sat, 15 Jun 2013 16:57:16 GMT

I guess that when they say the passport is legitimate they mean that it has been registred in the proper way, but I don't know.

I wasn't sure whether to report it or not but I figured that it was the right thing to do and now it is upto trading standards to work out if there is a problem with it or not. The owners were aware that I was going to report it and I did mention that they could potentially decide that the puppy needs to go into quarantine. SO hopefully they will be understanding. I did mention to the trading standards lady that we could prove if the vaccination was done or not with a blood test but she didn't seem interested in that.

Re: Latvian puppy

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 15 Jun 2013 15:30:35 GMT

[quote user="CatherineThomas"]So I called trading standards and they have investigated this. They say that the passport is legitamate[/quote]

How can they tell? If the puppy is today less than four months old, then the rabies vaccination (if any) must have been done before 3 months of age, so the passport is false. No?

Re: Latvian puppy

Stephen Courtney — Sat, 15 Jun 2013 12:56:24 GMT

You can't prove it is under 4 months of age, might just be a runty pup with bad breeding and a poor start.

Going into quarantine for 4 weeks helps no one least of all the pup.

If you are really worried about rabies maybe do a titre? cheaper than quarantine and could put your mind at rest.

the reason pups are not supposed to be vaccinated against rabies below 3 months of age is due to maternal antibodies interfering with the vaccine response. It doesn't mean the vaccine won't work at all, but there is a good chance the pups documents are totally bogus anyway.

Regarding the rabies case in Spain, as upsetting as these cases are to those involved, it is not a harbinger of rabid doom sweeping the face of Europe. These are isolated cases, nothing new, and invariably are from animals smuggled across from north Africa - a world away from Latvia.

Having said all that and awaiting red stars, i am appalled at the burgeoning trade in farmed pups coming in from Eastern Europe. But the answer to that is education, as it is highly unlikely that politicians will ever sort this mess out.

If you aren't aware of this petition

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/49528

please add your signature and share the link, if you have a mind.

Re: Latvian puppy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:40:20 GMT

Only certify what you are certain from your own knowledge-in this case unlikely to be 4 months old It would be nice to nail these importers-but not worth getting struck off for

Wynne

Re: Latvian puppy

Clair Firth — Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:39:18 GMT

I'm sure you've all seen this:

http://www.bsava.com/News/RabiesCaseinCentralSpain/tabid/1855/Default.aspx

There has been a rabies case in Spain and apparently people (including a child) have been bitten.

Although the majority of puppy farm smuggled puppies are coming to the UK from Eastern Europe and not Spain, I would still imagine that the UK authorities will finally take this seriously.

I am in Austria and we occasionally have rabies cases from these smuggled puppies - it is very rare, the last one was 10yrs ago I think, but we are all rabies vaccinated for free at uni and the authorities have only recently stopped using vaccine-doped bait to orally vaccinate foxes in the wild. I do not understand why the UK authorities are continually lowering the quarantine restrictions! There are no checks at all anywhere in the Schengen zone meaning that puppies can be transported direct from Hungary to France without a single check (and to be honest I don't know how much things are checked between Romania, Bulgaria and the entry into Schengen at the Hungarian border)

Very depressing :-(

Re: Latvian puppy

Bob Russell — Sat, 15 Jun 2013 11:23:08 GMT

I am pretty sure massive numbers of underaged puppies are travelling to the UK. We have had more than one here.

Perhaps time to reintroduce a blood test 30 days later but for all dogs travelling over any EU border! This trade would be stopped in its tracks and confirmation of antibody levels achieved.

This would have little impact within mainland Europe as there are few border controls but would have the effect of blocking such young puppies travelling hundreds of miles often in pretty dire conditions on the way to the UK.

Re: Latvian puppy

James Laidlaw — Sat, 15 Jun 2013 08:54:42 GMT

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/Dentistry/Tooth-eruption-and-exfoliation-in-dogs-and-cats/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/701974

Table might help?

Don't think times are set in stone, so I wouldn't want to be making any black and white statements about the age the puppy is or isn't. Maybe a dentist could help - get some photos of the mouth and post if the owner doesn't want to take to another vet?