Canine A.I.

Re: Canine A.I.

KathW — Thu, 23 May 2013 07:59:30 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

It is not our place to 'allow' an owner to breed their dog, merely point out the pros and cons. If as a profession we take a stand against all breeding then small animal practice will be quiet in 15 years time.

It is our place to encourage responsible breeding. Every responsible breeder has had to have a first litter. This owner is seeking advice, worry about the ones that ring up once the bitch is having difficulty.

I though on the little information given we were very quick to condemn.

[/quote]

Well said!

I must say my thoughts were more along the lines of Evelyn's but I'm not the boss

The client says she has potential homes for all the puppies. She's happy to come in for a proper chat and re start vaccs so I'll be able to talk through the pros and cons and costs ( and yes we always disucc the potential costs of an ooh caesarian !). It sounds like a random thought from a pet owner wanting to do what she has heard "is best for her dog." We can discuss the veterinary perspective of what's best for her individual dog face to face.

I've got a lot more useful information for an informed discussion with her. Many Thanks everyone.

Re: Canine A.I.

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 23 May 2013 00:16:51 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]The supply of puppies is exceeding the demand by far, rescue centres and charities are bursting at the seams with abandoned and unwanted pets. To allow or encourage further breeding is irresponsible. [/quote]

From the information given we don't know if they have homes for all the puppies. We have no idea of the circumstances, and neither does the OP if they haven't seen the dog for 18 months.

I though on the little information given we were very quick to condemn.

Re: Canine A.I.

Clive Ansell — Wed, 22 May 2013 17:30:27 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Why advising against it?

[/quote]

The supply of puppies is exceeding the demand by far, rescue centres and charities are bursting at the seams with abandoned and unwanted pets. To allow or encourage further breeding is irresponsible.

Re: Canine A.I.

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 22 May 2013 12:55:59 GMT

I had an owner a couple of months back that was interested in this, and wanted costings etc. Things to consider are:

With natural service, the dog will know when the bitch is ready to mate, and the bitch will let him. You don't have this with AI, so premate testing is important, and you may have to do it regularly, or you may miss ovulation entirely. The owner will have to be really on the ball (is this likely?)

2 non-surgical types of AI - intra-vaginal and trans-cervically. You need specialist kit for trans-cervical, andthis is the only way to do it if using frozen semen, anbd probably chilled semen. If you want fresh semen (as in collect it off the dog in the room with the bitch, then get it in ASAP), conception rates are fairly similar to natural mating this way. How much do you want to charge for your time and skills in this process?

If the pups are to be KC registered, the sire has to have sired a litter with natural breeding. They can't be KC registered if the AI is done surgically.

There is an awful lot more cost and effort involved with AI. If the owner is just wanting a litter 'because it's good for her' then when she sees what is involved on paper she may go off the idea. Add in to the estimate cost of a caesarian, plus the fact if the bitch is ill after whelping they'll have to be feeding them hourly for the first week or two. IME this puts this sort of client off.

Re: Canine A.I.

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 22 May 2013 01:13:56 GMT

[quote user="KathW"] it's a pet owner with a 3 yr old dog that wants to let her have a litter " because that's what's best for them isn't it"[/quote]

That would get a swift answer from me.

But I'm self-employed!

Re: Canine A.I.

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 22 May 2013 00:21:45 GMT

Get your kit on ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Canine-Artificial-Insemination-Kit-Dog-AI-Kit-Dog-breeding-/180836340446?pt=UK_Home_Garden_Kitchen_Steamers_Cookers_PP&var=&hash=item2a1aaf92de

Re: Canine A.I.

David Mills — Wed, 22 May 2013 00:12:52 GMT

There was a thread on this in the past few months I think.

The AI route is routinely used by trained stockmen and repro companies in LA practice - so I would suspect it falls outside the VS preserve. However, in smallies I wouldn't recommend it. Cows and sheep are pretty bullet proof with this sort of stuff but I suspect a Shit zu isn't.

Depending where you are there are repro people who will do it - A von Himmendahl (sp?) is in the Cambridgeshire area, there are some others round and about - Croft in the NE for example.

Personally, I would be doing everything possible to dissuade this owner. Mating a dog that doesn't like other dogs? Do me a favour (the owner, not you).

Re: Canine A.I.

Liz w — Tue, 21 May 2013 23:17:10 GMT

The free virbac webinar on small animal reproduction might be useful if you have time to watch it before your chat.

Re: Canine A.I.

KathW — Tue, 21 May 2013 23:09:37 GMT

Thanks for the replies. This isn't a breeder. I phoned and had a chat - it's a pet owner with a 3 yr old dog that wants to let her have a litter " because that's what's best for them isn't it"

Her bitch doesn't like other dogs though and so - as her father has a dog of the same breed (Shih Tzu) she thought AI would be the best way forwards.

She's coming in for a proper chat and get get her dog back up to date with vaccinations - watch this space!

Re: Canine A.I.

Christina Smith — Tue, 21 May 2013 21:48:45 GMT

AI is commonly used by many breeders.In certain breeds it seems to be preferable to allowing them to mate naturally.Vast amounts of money are spent on imported semen and blood tests to get exact dates for ovulation.Though I believe the KC has rules on the registration of pups born from AI. DEFRA licenses and oversees the importation side. I think Croft Veterinary Group in Northumberland have an advice site on their web page.Breeders that use the dog breeding forums are extremely knowlegable so take care!

Re: Canine A.I.

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 21 May 2013 20:53:16 GMT

I'll be honest and admit i don't know if AI was involved. Mainly it was the dog's massive hormonal issues. I've taken it off topic, i apologize. :)

Re: Canine A.I.

Andrew Mellor — Tue, 21 May 2013 18:15:07 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

Just jumping in, but back when I was in practice we had a client whose purebreed GSD had frequent (almost every season) false pregnancies; and the times she wasn't on false pregnancy, she was being unsuccessfully mated. We advised her in no uncertain terms that breeding was extremely high risk, and we monotonously recommended spaying. The owner wouldn't countenance it, as she 'just wanted one puppy' from her. (she was on benefits and her decision of course had nothing to do with the street value of said pups!) Owner didn't come back for about 6 months and then turned up OOH with the dog in the terminal stages of toxic pyometra. Ugliest color gums I'd ever seen, panty, tacky, thready, basically a list of all the things you'd see in a dog that was on the way out.

One of the few times i've been really annoyed at someone for ignoring my advice. Most times I can shrug it off.

[/quote]

was this following AI ? certainly i think owners have very little concept of how easily things can go wrong with a veiw to introducing infection etc.

Re: Canine A.I.

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 21 May 2013 15:25:04 GMT

One of the few times i've been really annoyed at someone for ignoring my advice. Most times I can shrug it off.

Re: Canine A.I.

KathW — Tue, 21 May 2013 15:22:39 GMT

I havent spoken to owner yet but i'm presuming they havent even tried the dog + bitch togetehr - checked time of season etc so I would try the natural way 1st . I'm presuming too much maybe before I speak to them.

Re: Canine A.I.

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 21 May 2013 14:50:12 GMT

If it is done 'turkey baster' style I cannot see how it would fall under the remit of the VSA, but never looked for this particularly.

Why advising against it?