Canine tooth filling

Re: Canine tooth filling

Virginia Campbell — Tue, 21 May 2013 11:50:58 GMT

Round here dogs that are too hard on sheep get sold as cattle dogs

Re: Canine tooth filling

Mark Holmes — Mon, 20 May 2013 13:49:46 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="CatherineThomas"]Well isn't there a good chance this proceedure could cause chronic problems/pain for this animal? [/quote]

No. That's the whole point of the proposed pulp-capping procedure.

I see no parallel whatsoever with declawing cats.

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]One further thought, does this sort of thing perpetuate the problem? Say for instance following his op he became a champion sheep dog or even locally known as a "good" dog. Would any subsequent off spring be inclined to be hard with their teeth?[/quote]

Interesting point for discussion some time. I'd have guessed not, but I don't know. Is there anyone on the forum who has some really good knowledge of working collie breeding?

[/quote] Well a dog's bite has various breed associations. Soft mouthed gun dogs can catch and retrieve a rabbit without a scratch - try getting a terrier to do that. Different dog breeds exhibit different parts of a stalk, chase,bite sequence Collies are strong in the stalk, Greyhounds in the chase etc. Behaviour if breed associated must have a genetic basis and biting behaviour would superficially at least seem to follow this hypothesis.

Re: Canine tooth filling

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 20 May 2013 13:25:18 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I spent a while last night watching a number of human videos on Youtube with fillings and read a few documents. Root canal treatment seems to be indicated with diseased pulp. Unless I am missing something, or there is already trauma to these teeth then the cavity should still be sterile.[/quote]

Exactly. The pulp, which you will expose in sterile manner, will be exposed for just a couple of minutes. The technique termed "direct pulp capping" has an excellent prognosis if properly performed.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"] Can I not cut crown, mine out some dentine, densinsitiser and then amalgam?[/quote]

But, no, it's not quite that simple.

Re: Canine tooth filling

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 20 May 2013 13:15:20 GMT

I read the BSAVA book, but it doesn't add much to the party.

I spent a while last night watching a number of human videos on Youtube with fillings and read a few documents. Root canal treatment seems to be indicated with diseased pulp. Unless I am missing something, or there is already trauma to these teeth then the cavity should still be sterile. Can I not cut crown, mine out some dentine, densinsitiser and then amalgam?

I can get a curing light from Kent Express for £325 - that is not a problem.

Re: Canine tooth filling

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 20 May 2013 12:57:36 GMT

[quote user="CatherineThomas"]Well isn't there a good chance this proceedure could cause chronic problems/pain for this animal? [/quote]

No. That's the whole point of the proposed pulp-capping procedure.

I see no parallel whatsoever with declawing cats.

Interesting point for discussion some time. I'd have guessed not, but I don't know. Is there anyone on the forum who has some really good knowledge of working collie breeding?

Re: Canine tooth filling

James Laidlaw — Mon, 20 May 2013 11:02:04 GMT

It's certainly an interesting discussion point where the line between farm animal and canine pet becomes blurred. Personally I think refusal to perform followed with or preceded by an explanation of why you won't do for "the old price" or other reasons, and educating the client as to why would be my approach. It's a difficult situation where a mindset of approach has been created between a client and previous vet where they got along and may have done things with a less than perfect approach... Be interested to know how you get on either way! Good luck!

Re: Canine tooth filling

Mark Holmes — Mon, 20 May 2013 09:31:38 GMT

One further thought, does this sort of thing perpetuate the problem? Say for instance following his op he became a champion sheep dog or even locally known as a "good" dog. Would any subsequent off spring be inclined to be hard with their teeth?

Re: Canine tooth filling

CatherineThomas — Mon, 20 May 2013 07:17:52 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="CatherineThomas"]I agree. We shouldn't be taking part in or encouraging mutilation as an answer to behavioural problems. Surely it is worse than de-clawing cats.[/quote]

[/quote]

Well isn't there a good chance this proceedure could cause chronic problems/pain for this animal? Shouldn't we be thinking about the welfare of our patients as our first priority and first do no harm?

If it is done without fillings (as it obviously has been done in the past) then even more so.

I don't really know anything about fillings in veterinary medicine but from my experience with my own teeth I thought that if the pulp cavity was exposed a root canal treatment is necessary. Is that not the case in this situation?

I've had a root canal treatment which went wrong and it caused a chronic low grade pain/discomfort, so the kind of thing which a dog might not show as obvious pain but would affect their quality of life. In people they expect a certain percentage of root canal treatments to fail and that is when they are done by dentists who have been trained in the technique.

Maybe I am making incorrect assumptions here but those were my thoughts.

Re: Canine tooth filling

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 19 May 2013 23:41:35 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

Farmers are a tough bunch, routinely crawling back from the fields dripping in blood and sweat with little to be said except 'Darn, tore my arm off'

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20112747,00.html

Trouble is that they think everything else is as hard as they are

Neil AKA Devon Farmers Son

[/quote]

Much too hard to have a guard on the PTO.

Re: Canine tooth filling

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 19 May 2013 23:38:52 GMT

Thanks for the book reviews, but I won't rush out and buy either tonight.

Will look at the BSAVA book. They are quite variable in quality, but I find I am quite suited to a basic list of instructions. I get frustrated sometimes dragging the details I need out of wordy prose!

Re: Canine tooth filling

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 19 May 2013 23:28:52 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Equally if there is a better book available I will buy it.

[/quote]

Well, see what you think after studying the BSAVA book.

Wiggs and Lobprise is often regarded as the "bible" because of its weight and apparent thoroughness. It's good on theory, a little out of date on practice. It also contains some wrong stuff, on fluoride just for instance. Curiously, it doesn't seem to say anything about pulp capping (unless I am being particularly blind) so it won't help. Holmstrom, Frost and Eisner is often regarded as a good practical manual and it has a nicely illustrated section on pulp capping. Unfortunately the technique illustrated is way out of date and would certainly frustrate you if you attempted it.

Re: Canine tooth filling

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 19 May 2013 23:08:24 GMT

[quote user="CatherineThomas"]I agree. We shouldn't be taking part in or encouraging mutilation as an answer to behavioural problems. Surely it is worse than de-clawing cats.[/quote]

Re: Canine tooth filling

John Flynn — Sun, 19 May 2013 22:21:15 GMT

[quote user="CatherineThomas"]We shouldn't be taking part in or encouraging mutilation as an answer to behavioural problems.[/quote]

I'm generally inclined to agree, but I don't know the sheep would.

[quote user="CatherineThomas"]Surely it is worse than de-clawing cats.[/quote]

And surely it is no worse than other mutilations that are commonly performed such as clipping piglets teeth, docking and castrating the lambs the dog is chasing, dehorning adult cattle etc. etc. In the case of declawing cats, this is usually purely for owner convenience; in this case at least the welfare of the sheep seems to be the driving force.

I think that's a tough situation you've found yourself in, Michael. I would personally refuse (doesn't have to be rude, I'd just say that I'd never done such a procedure and wasn't confident I could do it without leaving the dog with a sore mouth - if there's another vet in the area who will, then fine, otherwise the local practice of this mutilation will die out), but I wouldn't chastise you for doing the procedure as requested.

Re: Canine tooth filling

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 19 May 2013 22:15:06 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"] I suspect his previous dogs became less hard on the sheep because his teeth were sore.[/quote]

Not convinced. I have seen dogs that have had this done and tapped the canine stump with artery forceps with zero reaction. The last time I had toothache if you'd done that to me I'd have thumped you. Hard.

All sheepdogs 'nip', just some have harsher mouths. The dog is looking like a good worker but keeps getting hold of sheep and inflicting puncture wounds from its canines. The issue is one of sheep welfare. This is not the sort of behaviour that can be trained out.

The issue is short teeth or likely a bullet. I'd rather shorten the teeth and let the dog have a good working life for the next 10-12 years.

Tail docking working dogs not an issue to me, I do them too.

Re: Canine tooth filling

CatherineThomas — Sun, 19 May 2013 22:04:16 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]Have to be honest I would have said no. I guess if the option is 4 short teeth or a bullet it would be a difficult call but I can't see how tail docking can be an issue and tooth docking not. Also not sure of the benefit. I suspect his previous dogs became less hard on the sheep because his teeth were sore. 4 x fillings and that wouldn't be the case.

[/quote]

I agree. We shouldn't be taking part in or encouraging mutilation as an answer to behavioural problems. Surely it is worse than de-clawing cats.

Re: Canine tooth filling

Nicola Lawlor — Sun, 19 May 2013 21:59:14 GMT

Would it not be an option to completely remove the upper canines and leave the lower canines with little to bite against?

Re: Canine tooth filling

Mark Holmes — Sun, 19 May 2013 21:42:17 GMT

Have to be honest I would have said no. I guess if the option is 4 short teeth or a bullet it would be a difficult call but I can't see how tail docking can be an issue and tooth docking not. Also not sure of the benefit. I suspect his previous dogs became less hard on the sheep because his teeth were sore. 4 x fillings and that wouldn't be the case.

Re: Canine tooth filling

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 19 May 2013 20:31:54 GMT

Equally if there is a better book available I will buy it.

Re: Canine tooth filling

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 19 May 2013 20:30:23 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]I'm thinking you are going to need to buy a number of new instruments and disposables, as well as some materials (I'm trying to think out a technique for you that requires the minimum of outlay on materials and nothing that's too dificult to handle).[/quote]

I'm really not bothered about investing in things we will use again. I may have another 30+ years work in me so I can get a payback.

More of an issue if I had to buy £250 of filling material that needs using up in 28 days. If you see what I mean?

We use Henry Schein so they have quite a bit of dental stuff in stock. I have a Kent Express catalogue too. Nothing of this sort of kit on the Roots website (where I got my machine, based partially on your recommendation on the forum)

Re: Canine tooth filling

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 19 May 2013 20:22:06 GMT

Farmers are a tough bunch, routinely crawling back from the fields dripping in blood and sweat with little to be said except 'Darn, tore my arm off'

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20112747,00.html

Trouble is that they think everything else is as hard as they are

Neil AKA Devon Farmers Son

Re: Canine tooth filling

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 19 May 2013 20:19:06 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Is the technique the same as people? I have a good friend who is a human dentist. He only does a 4 day week and I expect would help out.[/quote]

Sounds ideal! The technique is the same in principle, but really rather different in practice. Human dentists are often not ready for the canine canine! But if he's a good friend and you can put your heads together as it were.....

Cecilia Gorrel's book won't help here. I have only the 1st edition BSAVA book, so yours may be different: I'd say it outlines the principles all right but the description of technique lacks detail and makes it all look too easy for the tyro.

Anyway, have a dekko at the books and come back. I'm thinking you are going to need to buy a number of new instruments and disposables, as well as some materials (I'm trying to think out a technique for you that requires the minimum of outlay on materials and nothing that's too dificult to handle).

Re: Canine tooth filling

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 19 May 2013 20:09:02 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]I guess you could try and when the dog tries to bite the sheep, it'll say ouch that hurt even more than it does now, and so your 'have a go' would have been deamed a success. [/quote]

The farmer was quite happy with me just slicing them level with the gum!

As far as I know I was expecting to fill the pulp, not do a root canal, but I may be wrong. Aesthetics not an issue so black amalgam fine as a material. My dentist friend once told me it was the most forgiving filling material.

Re: Canine tooth filling

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 19 May 2013 20:03:40 GMT

Hi Michael

Having had to surgically extract 3 canine teeth from a cat last week and seen how small those canals are, I wouldn't attempt this.

I had a root canal done by a specialist 8 years ago and there were 4 canals to fill. My dentist referred me as he felt he couldn't do root canals. In a survey of 10 friends. 2 still had the drill bit in situ, 2 had had to have multiple attempts, 3 had had the tooth removed subsequently, the others wished they'd had the tooth removed.

I guess you could try and when the dog tries to bite the sheep, it'll say ouch that hurt even more than it does now, and so your 'have a go' would have been deamed a success.

Good Luck

Neil

Re: Canine tooth filling

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 19 May 2013 19:55:29 GMT

Is the technique the same as people? I have a good friend who is a human dentist. He only does a 4 day week and I expect would help out.

I have the BSAVA dentistry book and Veterinary Dentistry for the General Practitioner (first edition, not the newest 2nd).

Your 'recipe' would be great, even via the conversation feature.

Really do appreciate your help.

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Re: Canine tooth filling

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 19 May 2013 19:43:04 GMT

Michael, I appreciate completely the position you are in. What I'm saying is that it's not quite so easy as you might think from the books, there's potential for complete foul-up if you get just one bit wrong and you certainly need more bits and pieces and stuff than you might think. This is vital pulpotomy followed by direct pulp capping and is not to be attempted casually (I know that's not what you are proposing, but others might).

I'm prepared to give you one of my step-by-step recipes, especially if you give me time to give it a little thought and devise a technique suitable for your type of situation. I'm less happy about bunging it on the forum for everyone to read. What dentistry books do you have? Read what they say first and then come back to me on the forum tomorrow.

I'm not sure I'd trust the £20 curing light. Maybe better to see if your friendly local dentist would lend you one? Maybe he would let you have a few units of materials too?

I'm sure the best thing would be for you to do this dog in collaboration with an obliging "specialist" (advanced practitioner, expert, general cool dude, whatever ) ; it has, after all, four teeth to do so you could watch the first one and do the fourth all by yourself...... but could this be arranged? Bob Partridge is your nearest Specialist. (I'd come myself, seriously, but you're a bit far.)

Have you got decent lighting and binocular loupes? It's astonishing how much easier things are when you can see properly.