practicing on cadavers

Re: practicing on cadavers

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 25 Apr 2013 11:25:55 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]As far as I know the RSPCA has never taken healthy strays.[/quote]

Absolutely. Most vets in private practices know this.

The problem is that the RSPCA don't inform the public. In fact, their adverts indicate quite the opposite......sad-looking dog found among rubbish in an alleyway.......box of kittens left by side of road....etc etc.. all carried away by caring RSPCA inspector. Frustrates me that the RSPCA are happy for Joe Public to think that they are trawling the streets actively looking for pets in need, as it brings in the money, but if Joe public rang the RSPCA to report a stray dog in an alley, they wouldn't be interested.... 'it is not our problem, ring the council' etc.

Re: practicing on cadavers

David Mills — Wed, 24 Apr 2013 13:37:43 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]If clients can afford to own and run cars should they not be attending a PVS?[/quote]

Possibly. But that goes for ?>80% of charity clients. Even in central London a hell of a lot people drove to the BX. Without wishing to open another debate, all charities have objective criteria for assessing eligibility, usually council tax benefit and housing benefit plus others. We see a lot of state pensioners, for instance. There will always be those that can afford PVS receiving charity care. ID fraud is a major problem, too. In general, the BAH works as a low-cost vets, and is not donation based - this catches those who can afford pets but not quite PVS fees.

For others without cars, Birmingham and the surrounding area is very well served by PDSA hospitals, and PDSA PetAid practices. As I said, there is somewhat of a shift in focus with the move.

Re: practicing on cadavers

Clive Ansell — Wed, 24 Apr 2013 13:29:00 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

Yes, yes, and by car generally. In fact, the old Barnes Hill site now has an Asda on it. The new site is on an old farm, in acres of countryside.

[/quote]

If clients can afford to own and run cars should they not be attending a PVS?

I know where it is, how do genuine clients on benefits with no car manage to get there?

Re: practicing on cadavers

Mark Rowland — Wed, 24 Apr 2013 13:28:52 GMT

This issue is something I had real trouble with when I was learning my trade. I mean what do you do if you need to GA and Spey a tortoise or a chameleon. For this reason (sorry to self plug) I'm producing a series of HD videos on exotic topics. The procedures I have so far include: Tortoise Spey, g pig flank ovariectomy, chameleon Spey, tortoise feeding tube placement, tortoise ear abscess treatment, tortoise cloacal prolapse management, iguana Spey, chameleon Spey, rabit Spey, snake spectacle abscess treatment, to go with my avian and tortoise DVDs. Anyone interested or if there are any other procedures wanted, get in touch :-)

Re: practicing on cadavers

David Mills — Wed, 24 Apr 2013 13:20:23 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

Is the new BAH now up and running?

I gather it is somewhat out of the way, how do clients get there?

[/quote]

Yes, yes, and by car generally. In fact, the old Barnes Hill site now has an Asda on it. The new site is on an old farm, in acres of countryside.

Our focus has shifted to stray work (about 60-70%), case (10%) and public (10-20%) in this area, and we draw a lot off Inspectors from round and about; at BH it used to be more public work. The RSPCA in general is looking more to preventative work than firebrigade stuff, and this includes public work, and reducing the scope of service for the latter.

Re: practicing on cadavers

Clive Ansell — Wed, 24 Apr 2013 13:06:57 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

More than happy to recommend a local RSPCA centre for you to visit to see for yourself. If you're anywhere near the midlands, I'll give you the grand tour of BAH, even with a cup of tea or instant coffee thrown in.

[/quote]

Is the new BAH now up and running?

I gather it is somewhat out of the way, how do clients get there?

Re: practicing on cadavers

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 24 Apr 2013 12:55:23 GMT

RSPCA There's the Inspectorate-who are employed by central RSPCA I greatly admire them, and couldn't do the job-I'd probably end up throttling some bad owner on my first morning. They are the only people who even attempt to enforce the law regarding cruelty to animals-it's the statutory responsibility of the police to detect all crime, and that of the Crown Prosecution Service to prosecute-but both totally abdicate their responsibility(although this is one of the very very very few things I would actually be prepared to pay taxes for). Anyway, problem with the Inspectorate is simple-far far too few of them-multiply their numbers at least 10 fold-and get magistrates on side to always give deterrant punishments and there would be a chance of eradicating animal crime

Branches Some are very very good, some are useless-and there's everything in between It depends on the local committee-so unsurprisingly a nation wide forum will include those who've had both good and bad experiences Totally impossible to generalise

Back to original point about practising on cadavers There was once a DC hearing As far as I remember the veterinary surgeon had PTSd a large dog The owner wanted it disposed of The dog wouldn't fit in a plastic bag, so the veterinary surgeon cut it in half, put into 2 bags and as the freezer was full left the bags on the floor in a back room overnight The owners later changed their minds and phoned requesting the body The veterinary surgeon panicked, lied, said the body had gone for cremation already The owners came to the surgery, looked through a window saw the bags-came to the correct conclusion, and reported the veterinary surgeon to RCVS-who definitely gave some punishment

Moral of above tale-don't ever practice on a cadaver without permission

Wynne

Re: practicing on cadavers

Anthony Dennison — Mon, 22 Apr 2013 09:40:34 GMT

Have to admit, the majority of my experiences with the RSPCA have been good - the local inspectors bring everything to us so we get on with them well, if someone brings in a stray we will usually have a quick chat with one of them for a log number, and they are good at picking up animals brought in by members of the public.

Unfortunately, as in life, it is usually the negative experiences that stick in your head longer.

Re: practicing on cadavers

David Mills — Sun, 21 Apr 2013 23:39:46 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="David Mills"]The problem with these debates is that it always turns into a pissing contest:[/quote]

Charming - people express genuine and long-held concerns and that's your response.

Niall

[/quote]

Peculiar (or more likely diversary) thing to pick up on.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pissing%20contest

Maybe I was being a little too youthful. If you like, it becomes a distinct mixture of anecdotal and tu quoque logically fallacious argument, and with the RSPCA especially, with a healthy dose of appeal to emotion; you've just added bandwagon to that mixture too.

http://www.vetsurgeon.org/forums/p/11217/59744.aspx#59744

http://www.vetsurgeon.org/forums/p/6354/25551.aspx#25551

http://www.vetsurgeon.org/forums/p/6159/24667.aspx#24667

http://www.vetsurgeon.org/forums/p/14349/83194.aspx#83194

Etc.

Where are you based? More than happy to recommend a local RSPCA centre for you to visit to see for yourself. If you're anywhere near the midlands, I'll give you the grand tour of BAH, even with a cup of tea or instant coffee thrown in.

I'm not arguing that people don't get annoyed, or in some cases aren't right to get annoyed, with the RSPCA. I'm sure there are cases where strays have been overlooked, wrongly. We ain't perfect. But to make false claims about 'the RSPCA' and what they do/don't do is something I will try and correct. If people still want to rely on their personal anecdotes, shucks, it won't keep me awake at night. I just would have expected vets to be, well, a little more evidentially open minded. Ho hum.

Re: practicing on cadavers

Niall Taylor — Sun, 21 Apr 2013 22:34:15 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]The problem with these debates is that it always turns into a pissing contest:[/quote]

Charming - people express genuine and long-held concerns and that's your response.

Niall

Re: practicing on cadavers

David Mills — Sun, 21 Apr 2013 21:57:28 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

Firstly, you simply replied that they do take strays - not specifying injured

[/quote]

Apologies. I didn't realise it wasn't common knowledge. As far as I know the RSPCA has never taken healthy strays.

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]My girlfriend was called out in the middle of the night to go and collect a cat a member of the public had found after it had been hit by a car. The man had rung the RSPCA, who told him they wouldnt come out to get it, and he should ring a local vets to do it. So she had to go out on a home visit to collect the cat and then do initial emergency treatment. Bet they won't be paying for that.[/quote]

[quote user="Utlendigur"]Secondly, no they won't take them, unless they think there's a prosecution in it. They may pay a small amount towards IET, usually after a battle, but that's it - they won't take them in. The practice is left to board/treat it until an owner turns up, a local rescue will take it or the practice rehomes it themselves.

[/quote]

The problem with these debates is that it always turns into a pissing contest: I had this case once etc etc. It is well publicised that there are problems with consistency, the regional set up is both a strength and a weakness in this regard, and the national call centre has significant issues. All I can do to tangibly show that the RSPCA do very much take strays is to extend an invite to all to either visit your local RSPCA hospital or rehoming centre and have a look around - we'd be more than happy to show you the vast number of strays, which far, far outweigh any number case animals. We'll even show you the 10s-100s that are PTS every week if you're interested.

Re: practicing on cadavers

Anthony Dennison — Sun, 21 Apr 2013 21:42:13 GMT

The[quote user="David Mills"]

The RSPCA will take any injured or sick stray cats, or dogs. They are not there to clean up neighbourhoods of healthy roaming strays. They rest are the responsibility of the local authority.

I thought you were an evidence based man?

[/quote]

My girlfriend was called out in the middle of the night to go and collect a cat a member of the public had found after it had been hit by a car. The man had rung the RSPCA, who told him they wouldnt come out to get it, and he should ring a local vets to do it. So she had to go out on a home visit to collect the cat and then do initial emergency treatment. Bet they won't be paying for that.

Re: practicing on cadavers

Rob Davis — Sat, 20 Apr 2013 16:50:43 GMT

[quote user="SER"]I don't do it myself but would really like to get better at dental extractions[/quote]

If you are in a rural area try to find out who shoots foxes locally - dentition very similar to dogs and excellent for practice.

Re: practicing on cadavers

Utlendigur — Sat, 20 Apr 2013 14:45:27 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]The RSPCA will take any injured or sick stray cats, or dogs.[/quote]

Firstly, you simply replied that they do take strays - not specifying injured

Secondly, no they won't take them, unless they think there's a prosecution in it. They may pay a small amount towards IET, usually after a battle, but that's it - they won't take them in. The practice is left to board/treat it until an owner turns up, a local rescue will take it or the practice rehomes it themselves.

Re: practicing on cadavers

David Mills — Sat, 20 Apr 2013 13:28:52 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Utlendigur"]RSPCA don't take strays.[/quote]

???

They do, very much so. [/quote]

Only when they've got their television faces on.

Round here you get your head in your hands to play with if you ask them to take strays. Yet they'd move mountains to prosecute some poor farmer who has had the misfortune to have a lamb expire near a public footpath.

Niall

[/quote]

Sigh.

The RSPCA will take any injured or sick stray cats, or dogs. They are not there to clean up neighbourhoods of healthy roaming strays. They rest are the responsibility of the local authority.

I thought you were an evidence based man?

Re: practicing on cadavers

Bob Russell — Sat, 20 Apr 2013 11:16:44 GMT

I have never disposed of medicines this way but why is it 'vile'? Seems not a bad idea in principle.

One of our nurses though it might be a good way to dispose of a human body by sealing the bits inside a cadaver! To the best of my knowledge she didn't try it!

Re: practicing on cadavers

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 20 Apr 2013 00:24:48 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Tracy Nichol, the struck off nurse. They exhumed the body to test for pentobarb, as nurse was accused of killing a patient without permission. They couldn't get her for that, so they struck her off for false entry of data on the PMS - a PMS without any password protection.

[/quote]

I remember that one. Thought they'd 'done' someone for pouring 450 OOD ACP tablets down a dead dog's throat.

Re: practicing on cadavers

Niall Taylor — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 22:38:25 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Utlendigur"]RSPCA don't take strays.[/quote]

???

They do, very much so. [/quote]

Only when they've got their television faces on.

Niall

Re: practicing on cadavers

Niall Taylor — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 22:33:43 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]Same applies to the vile practice of disposing of certain OOD drugs by injecting them into a carcase - gross![/quote] Now why didn't I think of that?, you've just given me a good idea![/quote]

But... but...

Sigh...

Niall

Re: practicing on cadavers

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 21:56:22 GMT

Tracy Nichol, the struck off nurse. They exhumed the body to test for pentobarb, as nurse was accused of killing a patient without permission. They couldn't get her for that, so they struck her off for false entry of data on the PMS - a PMS without any password protection.

Re: practicing on cadavers

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 20:27:46 GMT

[quote user="martin whiting"]Obviously no one is going to do that now, considering what happened in the Disciplinary Hearing last month! Imagine what the pathologist might say if the body is exhumed again.[/quote]

What case?

Re: practicing on cadavers

Martin Whiting — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 16:47:15 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Same applies to the vile practice of disposing of certain OOD drugs by injecting them into a carcase[/quote]

Obviously no one is going to do that now, considering what happened in the Disciplinary Hearing last month! Imagine what the pathologist might say if the body is exhumed again.

Re: practicing on cadavers

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:34:50 GMT

Re: practicing on cadavers

Martin Whiting — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 15:23:50 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Legally, I guess you have the law on your side as the body is now waste and your responsibility.[/quote]

Not necessarily, as it becomes waste when it is disposed of and even then can remain as the client's property unless explicitly consented or property is transferred. For example, ownership of skeletons, taxidermy specimens, or body parts in certain situations.

The RCVS has already issued a guidance document on this. You need to gain informed consent from the client in order to do anything with the body afterwards. Especially for practicing techniques or teaching.

You can find this in the discussion surrounding article 25 in the Supporting Guidance of the Code of Professional Conduct for VS (march 2012).

Re: practicing on cadavers

Utlendigur — Fri, 19 Apr 2013 14:39:00 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="Utlendigur"]RSPCA don't take strays.[/quote]

???

They do, very much so.

[/quote]

Not round here, they don't - local RSPCA centre only takes cruelty cases. It's also extremely rare for them to accept pets that clients want to sign over for rehoming, as client after client has informed us.

http://www.rspca.org.uk/in-action/whatwedo/decisions/prioritisinganimals

Maybe local differences, but strays round here end up at the council pound, local rescues but NOT the RSPCA