herbalism

Re: herbalism

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 21 Mar 2013 20:45:23 GMT

He is now on the RCVS list.

Re: herbalism

a.bardell — Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:21:27 GMT

sorry for late reply, not had access to computer for a while.

Ray's full name is Richard O'Mahony I think- he should be listed on the register under this.

Re: herbalism

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 14:07:13 GMT

[quote user="Alexa Bardell"]There is a lot of research starting to be done now into herbal preperations[/quote]

I await the papers...

[quote user="Alexa Bardell"]a large majority on the human side but some of this is extrapolatable to animal use[/quote]

in whose opinion? Surely if a medicine is to be shown to be effective, surely it should be researched on the target species?

Re: herbalism

HMC — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 13:21:08 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]he doesn't appear on either the RCVS or VCI registration lists.... [/quote]

Hmmm...... Alexa, can you shed any light on this?

Re: herbalism

a.bardell — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:28:57 GMT

I was only trying to comment on the original post about the website- you would have to ask Ray directly regarding his feelings towards TCM- I only know that last time I saw him at a meeting he was leaning a lot more this way. It is a couple of years ago so it seems he is heading very much in this direction.

I personally have been taught about TCM and all it entails with its references to energy channels etc and have come down very much on the western, scientific side of the fence. I know the same discussion is currently ongoing amongst the acupuncture fraternaty.

I was just trying to point out that there are some vets out there with a genuine interest in herbal medicine, comeing at it from a basis of good diagnosis and work up and treating appropriately. I would always advocate conventional drugs for acute conditions and have no problem with antibiotics, nsaids etc in their rightful place. I also think they can be overused in chronic conditions. What herbal practitioners try and do is look at the whole animal and understand why the problem arose in the first place (like most vets). Often we feel that there is stress component involved with a knock on effect to the immune system and general well being of the animal. Often I willl prescribe herbs to boost wht working of the immune system in combination with others to, for example help liver function if there has been long term medication involved that required liver metabolism.

I often start my arthritic patients on rimadyl as well as herbs and then decrease the dose accordingly as the herbs kick in. We have to remember that herbs often take time to show their effects which is why they are useful in chronic conditions so I have no problem in using alongside convential drugs.

There is a lot of research starting to be done now into herbal preperations, a large majority on the human side but some of this is extrapolatable to animal use. we musn't forget that a lot of these remedies were used by our predocessors in years gone by although not all worked.

I appreciate that most on this forum are just asking pertinent questions but I can only speak personally with regards to herbs.

Re: herbalism

Niall Taylor — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 12:02:02 GMT

[quote user="Alexa Bardell"]I know I risk being shot down[/quote]

Don't mistake rational arguments for attacks - no one is "shooting you down" but people are questioning what you do in a genuine spirit of enquiry.

[quote user="Alexa Bardell"]I know Ray has a big interest in traditional chinese medicine as well and often comes at conditions from this angle. This is often a very different way of thinking and takes a lot of gettting your head round.[/quote]

TCM is a humours-based system of medicine, similar to pre-scientific European medicine, only instead of 4 humours, the Chinese had 5. It has no rational basis in science and is incompatible with science based medicine and, I would say, with modern, western herbalism which relies on a conventional diagnosis (eg. gastro-enteritis) being made prior to treatment; unlike TCM which relies more on references to the spirit, or life-force and will treat based on irrational non-diagnoses such as "damp" and "heat", in the same way that an ancient Greek would have talked about "fire", "water" or "phlegm" and "bile". The only difference being that the Europeans have moved on. Many Chinese too, have moved on to rational medicine; a large portion of TCM followers are "western" types.

It is TCM which endorses the use of rhino horn, tiger penises and bile harvested from living bears - anyone practicing and claiming good things for TCM is condoning this too.

[quote user="Alexa Bardell"]What he is really saying is that from a herbal point of view some herbs are known to stimulate digestion which can be classed as a heating type effect- ie things start working and energy in the form of ATP etc is generated etc. other herbs will damp down these processes so are known to be "cooling"[/quote]

That is not at all how a TCM practitioner would see it (energy, ATP etc) - is he a TCM practitioner or is he just using the language as a cover to impress clients? You can't have it both ways; you can't believe in "bits" of TCM, because then it's not TCM.

Niall

Re: herbalism

a.bardell — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 10:08:56 GMT

I didn't say it's not doing what it claims, just that the language used to describe it's actions is not one we are used to, or comfortable with, using.

It's not fraudulent to market something that works in a way that the public wants to see it supplied.

I appreciate that for a lot of vets herbalism is up there with homeopathy and witchcraft but it's something I went into with an open mind and a healthy dose of scepticism. I was impressed by the results I was getting and think that in the right situation it works v well. I would rather have a client seeking out myself or one of the other vets that I know have studied to a similar standard to prescribe herbs rather than a quack with no real knowledge of anatomy, physiology or pharmacology.

I accept the criticism that the course is not RCVS approved but is run by both vets and human herbalists which are well recognised in their field. the BMA are happy to recognise it as qualification for attendence at medical herbal meetings/conferences so there is a little recognition from a known body out there.

I would also like to point out that herbs are being looked at by the big pharmaceuticals more and more and a lot of the products used in every day practice incorporate herbs. Think of calmex (piper methysticum), seraquin (curcuma longa) and the liver supplements containing silymarin to name a just a few.

The general public are always going to look for different treatments and I think it is better to have a part of the profession willing and able to provide this service rather than lay people with the potential to do more harm than good.

Re: herbalism

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 09:54:52 GMT

[quote user="Alexa Bardell"]I know I risk being shot down[/quote]

Yes, and brave of you to come and post

[quote user="Alexa Bardell"]I really think it's getting to the point where we need to intergrate all the different modalities for treatment and instead of seeing them as something strange and witchy see them as a useful addition if used appropriately.[/quote]

As a layman and a dog owner, I believe that herbalism has a more merit than, say, homeopathy (or the QuantumVET™ Tricorder Plus).

That said, as far as I understand it (and please DO educate me if I am wrong, I am genuinely interested), there are few (any?) proper trials conducted on herbal medicines (either to test their efficacy or, as importantly, their safety profile), because it would make no financial sense for a company to invest in them.

That being the case I struggle to understand the circumstances under which it would be right to use them in place of a properly tested alternative. In fact, particularly because of the unknown side effects, I also struggle to understand the rationale for using them alongside properly tested drugs. The only situation I can think of when it would make sense, would be when all else has failed and the dog is standing at the door of the last chance saloon.

I'm really not trying to have a pop at you in the slightest, perhaps there is more evidence for herbalism than I am aware of. Genuinely interested to hear the counter argument!

Re: herbalism

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 08:44:22 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

It is certainly cheaper than the treatment a conventional vet would recommend - no? In what way is that not both fraudulent and exploitation?

[/quote]

Well, we *could* license it and quintuple the price... (and yes, I know there's miles of difference, i'm just being a smartypants this morning!)

Re: herbalism

David Mills — Thu, 14 Mar 2013 21:21:29 GMT

It's the 'MAVH' after 'Ray's name that made me chuckle.

Surely should be 'FAVH' for such an austere institution.

Re: herbalism

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 14 Mar 2013 18:55:53 GMT

[quote user="Alexa Bardell"]I know Ray who has set up the website and have also completed the veterinary herbal medicine course and exams over a 3 yr period.[/quote] Are well it must be alright then if he's done the course, and three years, wow even more impressive, he's probably got an 'ology in it as well!. But wait a minute - who actually authenticates and licences said course, others of a similar persuasion?

Re: herbalism

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 14 Mar 2013 18:20:01 GMT

I have found his website:

http://www.nhs4animals.com/coursesforvets/index.html

but he doesn't appear on either the RCVS or VCI registration lists....

Re: herbalism

Virginia Campbell — Thu, 14 Mar 2013 18:06:27 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Bose"]Can anyone else find the vet's name on the RCVS register or am I being blind?[/quote]

Can anyone find the vet's name on the Veterinary Council of Ireland's register?

Re: herbalism

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:47:10 GMT

[quote user="Alexa Bardell"]I'm afraid that we don't always help ourselves get accepted by using statements like this but then a lot of owners like this sort of thing- especially the ones who gravitate towards alternative medicine.[/quote]

Exactly. You are selling a product that cannot possibly do what you are saying it does, because that is what a client wants to hear. It is certainly cheaper than the treatment a conventional vet would recommend - no? In what way is that not both fraudulent and exploitation?

Re: herbalism

a.bardell — Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:40:08 GMT

I tend to come at herbs from a western perspective and in this I know I differ from some of the others practicing herbalism. I personally don't think we do ourselves any favours by making too many statements like this.

What he is really saying is that from a herbal point of view some herbs are known to stimulate digestion which can be classed as a heating type effect- ie things start working and energy in the form of ATP etc is generated etc. other herbs will damp down these processes so are known to be "cooling". We all know that stressy dogs can get GIT issues and colitis etc and what is in the tonic would be herbs that have an effect on calming down both the motility in the gut and also the dog if it is stressed. I often use herbs to just allow some of these dogs to relax a bit and sleep properly (if only I could do the same for the owners!) as well as known herbs to calm any inflammation in the gut.

I know Ray has a big interest in traditional chinese medicine as well and often comes at conditions from this angle. This is often a very different way of thinking and takes a lot of gettting your head round. I personally don't think along these lines and I know a lot of my other herbal colleagues are the same.

I'm afraid that we don't always help ourselves get accepted by using statements like this but then a lot of owners like this sort of thing- especially the ones who gravitate towards alternative medicine.

I just want to put the side of a (hopefully still) rational vet with an interest in alternative treatments, I use them alongside my usual drugs and always discuss with owners in detail.

I know I risk being shot down but I really think it's getting to the point where we need to intergrate all the different modalities for treatment and instead of seeing them as something strange and witchy see them as a useful addition if used appropriately.

Re: herbalism

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:12:40 GMT

OK. Thank-you for being open to questionning about this subject - it is nice that someone is brave enough to defend their use of alternative medicine.

Not sure where to start really - could be here all day. However, just to kick the debate off - the 'digestion' tonic for dog states in its description:

Cooling herbs clear the internal heat that can cause red sore gums and bad breath

As a vet, how do you feel about this statement?

Re: herbalism

a.bardell — Thu, 14 Mar 2013 17:01:48 GMT

Hi all

at risk of being shot down and declard a witch I would just like to speak up for the use of herbs. I know Ray who has set up the website and have also completed the veterinary herbal medicine course and exams over a 3 yr period. If you want to find out more there is a herbal vet website with qualified (completed exams) herbal vets on it.

What we are trying to do is use herbs alongside conventional drugs, as an adjunct not an alternative. I quite agree that there are plenty of people out there peddling herbal remedies with no training/knowledge and v dubious results. Anyone accredited to the British association of veterinary herbalists should be keeping to a code of practice and acting professionally and responsibly.

I see herbal referrals and try to work with other practices and keep them informed as any other referral vet would. I often decline to start treatment until further diagnostics are done.

We probably all use herbs to a certain extent if anyone uses a lot of the neutraceuticals they now often incorporate herbs as well.

Idon't want to replace what I trained to use just add to the options available. Owners will often try something a friend told them about or they buy over the counter. This is not always safe with other drugs or else the incorrect dose, at least I can talk and advise appropriatley since I've got some knowledge about the subject.

Anyway rant over, any questions (may well regret this!) I'd be happy to try and answer.

Also will apologise if any spelling mistakes, been a long day and not over yet.

Re: herbalism

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 19:27:52 GMT

good to see you back ... was wondering where you'd gone

Re: herbalism

Vikki Halliday LLB — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 16:49:36 GMT

Haha,

I will send you a private conversation Gillian and Bob, and yes I was happy with them........however some things are beyond our control

However I shall enjoy not having sleepless nights worrying about practice finance.....

Re: herbalism

Bob Russell — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:18:28 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Hmmm Vikki!

Would it be rude to ask what happened? I thought you was happy as JVP with them?

If my question is rude just file it in the drawer labelled 'impertinent'.

[/quote]

Gagging clause?

Re: herbalism

HMC — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 14:22:27 GMT

Can anyone else find the vet's name on the RCVS register or am I being blind?? Or is Ray short for Richard in Ireland?

Re: herbalism

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 10:14:25 GMT

Hmmm Vikki!

Would it be rude to ask what happened? I thought you was happy as JVP with them?

If my question is rude just file it in the drawer labelled 'impertinent'.

Re: herbalism

Vikki Halliday LLB — Tue, 12 Mar 2013 10:09:34 GMT

Hi Michael, and everybody!

Yep, as an aside to the thread you may notice some changes to my profile

Been a while, but hope to be accepted " back into the fold"

Re: herbalism

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 11 Mar 2013 22:07:49 GMT

Hello Vikki - not seen you on here in a while!

Re: herbalism

Niall Taylor — Mon, 11 Mar 2013 18:45:11 GMT

[quote user="Vikki Halliday"]I take Peppermint tea for IBS and Chamomile tea to unwind......[/quote]

Bit too much information there...

Oh, I see, unwind, as in relax... phew!

And if you're awaiting bricks you should be taking a little more fig in the mix.

Too gross?

Niall