clipping wings

Re: clipping wings

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 12 Feb 2013 09:02:10 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

Whilst this is not meant to add anything to the debate, anyone who is ever in SW London (well, Wandsworth to be precise) and has half an hour or such to spare should visit the Common and see the population of yellow and green parakeets that live there, a a self-sufficient wild population. Its a truly fabulous sight, thought to originate from the fashion a century or so ago of keeping these birds that subsequently escaped. They have managed to adapt to the British seasons fabulously, the tough little buggers.

[/quote]

They're getting quite widespread now, I saw a few near the River Wey in Guildford 2 weeks ago, there's a large colony in the Great Park at Windsor and my dad regularly sees them in Dartford.

Re: clipping wings

Ian Mostyn — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 22:55:55 GMT

There was a Blue & Gold Macaw living in the Butcher Hill part of Leeds for many years whilst I was a teenager. I used to see it on my way home from school but lost track when I went to uni.

Re: clipping wings

David Mills — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 22:48:23 GMT

Re: clipping wings

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 22:11:41 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Some clients are just morons though, who haven't read a book since school. We have rather a lot of them round here, it sometimes seems.[/quote]

Some of them never read a book at school either.

Re: clipping wings

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 22:08:48 GMT

I guess we disagree.

But:

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]And perhaps they shouldnt be taken out of their environment but that is a whole other issue.[/quote]

Possibly it's the whole issue.

I just feel that if people wish to keep non-domesticated bird species in their houses, they should adapt their domestic arrangements, not cut off what the bird flies with.

Re: clipping wings

Mark Rowland — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 21:43:26 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

So a dog while outdoors should maybe wear a ball and chain?

[/quote]

No, because a dog if it runs away hasn't necessarily signed its own death warrant, or are there lots of colonies of escaped parrots where you are Evelyn?

Hard luck, perhaps. Preventable? Perhaps?

Cant fly? no

Cant fly into a window at speed? Yes

Cant fly away? Yes

We are not talking about them jumping and dropping like a stone here (at least I am not)

And perhaps they shouldnt be taken out of their environment but that is a whole other issue.

Re: clipping wings

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 21:28:29 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]

I have no doubt that with only its secondaries this would not have happened.

No matter how well trained a dog can become startled and run under a car.

[/quote]

So a dog while outdoors should maybe wear a ball and chain?

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]What would you say to this client? Unclipped bird suddenly scared and flew 20ft before this happened[/quote]

I'd say that was very hard luck. That's all.

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]We have taken these animals out of their environment, we have a duty to offer them protection (from fear and distress).[/quote]

They are birds, the only protection we can offer is by cutting wing feathers off so that they can't fly?????

Maybe they should not be taken out of their environment, then.

Re: clipping wings

Mark Rowland — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 20:24:09 GMT

But to reiterate what I said earlier, I dont just reach for the scissors without any discussion.

Flying is a natural action for birds and falls under the 5 freedoms also.

I think that clipping when applied should turn flying into "falling with style" to quote Buzz.

I too try to get owners to think of other ways (as I said my birds have full flight capability)

I just think that there are situations where clipping wings can be turned to the advantage of the bird as well as increase the likelihood of the bird getting out of jail. ;-)

Re: clipping wings

Mark Rowland — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 19:45:24 GMT

[quote user="Ian Mostyn"]

No, happy, contented, well trained birds not escaping. I doubt they would escape if they were unclipped as their owners obviously put in more effort. Clipping wings as the sole method of escape prevention is a lazy way out. They could always walk to escape....

[[/quote]

I like you wife disapprove of clients bringing in unclipped birds on their shoulders.

I reckon if startled a picnic full of unclipped birds would descend into chaos no matter how well trained they were. At least if clipped they wouldnt be able to get far.

I maintain that birds need protection from their unnatural environment. What would you say to this client? Unclipped bird suddenly scared and flew 20ft before this happened

I have no doubt that with only its secondaries this would not have happened.

No matter how well trained a dog can become startled and run under a car. If it didnt get hit and just ran away it would stand a better chance of being found than an unclipped bird imo.

If an owner phoned you tonight saying his parrot had flown away, what chances would you give it of surviving the night at these temperatures.

We have taken these animals out of their environment, we have a duty to offer them protection (from fear and distress).

Angd Gillian if you consider it a mutillation I really am surprised that it is a procedure you EVER carry out.

But thats just my opinion

Re: clipping wings

Ian Mostyn — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 19:00:04 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]Ian please look at the picture, clipped birds not escaping[/quote]

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]it is because the bird is clipped that it is let out of the cage. You can't have it both ways.[/quote]

This is where I disagree the most, you can and should have an unclipped bird out of the cage. Properly tame and trained it is no more likely to fly away than my dog is to run away. The fact that people don't let unclipped birds out of the cage is poor husbandry. I actually feel that most birds get stuck in a cage, not because they can fly but because the owner can't / wont / too scared to handle them properly.

Ian

Re: clipping wings

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 18:25:45 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]But the point is Gillian it WILL stop them escaping.[/quote]

Firstly, you would have to remove an awful lot of feathers to prevent escape entirely. Secondly- as I said - preventing escape is not a good enough reason to maim the bird, IMHO.

Re: clipping wings

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 18:23:46 GMT

I think your earlier comment must be true Mark - we have a different type of client.

I do have some lovely clients, including those that bring in their UNCLIPPED parrots on their shoulders. (Not that I approve.) However, those that want their parrots wings clipped mostly do it for their own convenience, rather than to help their pet. Usually the parrots are aggressive, so catching them to put them away again is difficult. Having them unable to fly probably makes this battle less painful for them.

I spend a lot of time discussing training, harnesses etc. There are very good alternatives to clipping.

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]I think what birds miss most is outside time.[/quote]

Maybe they also miss flying?

Re: clipping wings

Mark Rowland — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 18:18:35 GMT

But the point is Gillian it WILL stop them escaping. Imagine if more of your bird clients were able to take their parrots outside on their hands and get them some outside time and UV exposure surely the interaction of a bird outside with its client is something to be encouraged. Not possible if there is its capability to fly away and be lost. Most people don't have aviaries but still like to hold and interact with their parrot. I think what birds miss most is outside time.

Re: clipping wings

Mark Rowland — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 18:03:14 GMT

Ian please look at the picture, clipped birds not escaping. You don't ever see escaped parrots thriving in the UK because they are all dead. To put my earlier point another way, it is because the bird is clipped that it is let out of the cage. You can't have it both ways. I have 2 parrots. Both have full flight capabilities. 1 chooses not to fly and walks everywhere for his exercise. The other dive bombs around my conservatory and if he flew away, I doubt he would come back of his own accord. I think an escaped flighted bird would not know how to get back ( hence why when birds of prey are lost they will follow another bird back) and just freeze.

Re: clipping wings

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 18:02:48 GMT

When chatting to clients, I get frustrated by the 'but it will stop it escaping' argument. Plenty of people have dogs that, given the chance, will 'leg-it' away from the house/owner. Does that mean we should hobble those dogs - or encourage responsible control of dogs and correct training?

Re: clipping wings

Ian Mostyn — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:53:08 GMT

I am sorry but I disagree Mark. An unclipped bird is likely to be safer outside as it can get away from predators. A decent breeze, walking or climbing up a tree / fence and then gliding will all let a clipped bird escape just as well. Maybe if you can catch them in the first few minutes? I would rather see an unclipped bird flying around the house, interacting with the family and well trained. Then if the bird escapes, it will probably fly around for a while due to the novelty factor but it is likely to want to come home when it is bored / scared / hungry.

I will clip if it is going to help prevent injury but I don't believe clipping prevents birds from escaping if outside, good training and proper care makes the bird want to come back.

Ian

Re: clipping wings

Mark Rowland — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:46:39 GMT

Actually I find most of my clients want to interact with their parrot, perhaps my client base is skewed because they seek me out and therefore by definition are looking for more proactive parrot care not just cage watching. I maintain that clipping wings with good education and training can lead to an enriched bird. I do object to not having the discussion with the client. At vet school the equine ortho guy had a grey parrot that sat on his shoulder as he walked around he yards. Wings clipped, plenty of outside time. An escaped unclipped bird has less chance of survival IMO and will either die of starvation, cold or predation. A clipped bird if escaped has a higher chance of being recaptured.

Re: clipping wings

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:38:49 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]Do you at least agree Evelyn that it is because the bird is unclipped that it is kept in the cage?[/quote]

No, it's kept in the cage because the unthinking owner regards that as the way to keep a parrot.[

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]At least restricting flight will allow the bird some mobility outside its cage but also that it won't fly away.[/quote]

It will still escape if the fancy takes it, but it will be handicapped in the great outdoors and unlikely to survive cats, vehicles or hooligans.

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]Would you rather be kept in chains but allowed to move around a larger environment or kept in solitary?[/quote]

This should be the choice for the bird???

Re: clipping wings

Mark Rowland — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:29:47 GMT

Do you at least agree Evelyn that it is because the bird is unclipped that it is kept in the cage? At least restricting flight will allow the bird some mobility outside its cage but also that it won't fly away. Would you rather be kept in chains but allowed to move around a larger environment or kept in solitary?

Re: clipping wings

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:24:14 GMT

I can't quite agree Mark.

The cage question is irrelevant, really. The unfortunate parrot going stir crazy in a cage is not going to need his wings clipped anyway.

The bird that's allowed to fly around the house: needs all the flying ability he can get, to avoid crashing into things and to learn to avoid crashing into things. The bird's owners need to make modifications to their house to remove the hazards, of windows and other things, especially while the bird is learning. If the owners don't want to make such modifications, maybe they shouldn't be keeping a parrot. (Not indoors, anyway. They could always have an aviary).

Re: clipping wings

Mark Rowland — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 17:04:28 GMT

I think there are 2 points here

1) Should birds be kept as pets and...

2) If so should their wings be clipped.

I think that if you accept point 1 then it has to be accepted that they are out of their normal environment and therefore are unable to act normally under most circumstances. I also think that having taken them out of their natural environment we have a moral responsibility to protect them from the environment they are in. Protection is required from predators, toxins, and household objects (e.g. glass windows). For a captive bird, escape usually means death (since they have no natural instincts for self defence), exposure to various household toxins usually means death and flying into glass means death. Wing clipping should be discussed at length sure and that discussion should be centred around what is required by the owner and acceptable for the bird.

Above all wing clipping should be carried out correctly. I have no problem people refusing to do it if they do not know how to do it. Firstly the bird should have already learned to fly (and especially land) safely.The Stiffer primaries are used for lift, the secondaries are used as flaps or breaks so these should be left alone. Both wings should be clipped.

Finally it should be remembered that clipping wings enables lots more environmental stimulation for the bird as well as access to outdoors. I used to have quite a rigid opposition over the whole subject until I spoke to the vet who organised this annual event for his clients, an outdoor parrot picnic. all wings clipped a bunch of happy looking birds and definitely better than living in a cage.

So I go for discussion and clip after the client and I have thrashed out the whole issue and they are still keen to clip

Re: clipping wings

Marie Kubiak — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 15:16:49 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Marie Kubiak"]AWA states animals should be allowed to display natural behaviour - I think taking away flight has to be considered a contravention.[/quote]

So does sticking it in a cage and making it live in a house..........

[/quote]

I completely agree, but actually getting owners in and trying to get them interested in improving the husbandry in general and educating them on bird psychology and behaviour has to be better surely than clipping their wings and taking away even more of the little freedom they have?

I'm not a fan of house birds, the hand-reared, seed-fed, cage-kept parrot has to be the most welfare compromised and screwed up of the pets I see. Makes me angry every time... I'd like to think things are improving - more people feed pulse/pellet diets, more birds are free-flighted and more birds are at least partially socialised but there's still a massive number that are kept in dire conditions. It seems reptile trade is the poster child for animal welfare groups at the moment but so much more should be being done for birds.

Marie

Re: clipping wings

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 15:03:56 GMT

I agree completely. Birds should not be kept in cages.

Re: clipping wings

bob lehner — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 14:26:31 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]The consultation also gives us a chance to discuss what is the biggest welfare issue that parrots face - poor nutrition![/quote]

Hmm - I'd have said that being in captivity in the first place is the bigger welfare issue.

Of all the ghastly things we do to animals I rate the wretched parrot/budgie or whatever in solitary confinement in a cage as pretty high on the list of ghastliness.

Re: clipping wings

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 11 Feb 2013 14:12:21 GMT

Some clients are just morons though, who haven't read a book since school. We have rather a lot of them round here, it sometimes seems.