chicken ovariohysterectomy

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

Bibs — Sat, 12 Jan 2013 11:50:53 GMT

My take on it is that although they sound kind of similar in that the word peritonitis is involved, they are two different problems with two different recommendations for treatment. In the chicken's case it was decided medical treatment was the best option first (after seeking good advice). There were some quite forceful comments from others suggesting that treating medically was similar to refusing to treat, and from what can see that was unfair.

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

Clair Firth — Sat, 12 Jan 2013 11:17:04 GMT

[quote user="Elizabeth Billimore"]I feel bad for you reading this thread Claire, You posted on here for advice, you followed the advice from the specialist who replied on here, and the specialist that you phoned. Surgery sounded like it would be a disaster with post op pain on top. The situation is obviously nothing like a dog with a pyo (routine surgery with good prognosis). You sent the chicken home on pain relief and antibiotics after offering the option of pts and explaining prognosis. The chicken is in a better situation now on these medications than it was before although poor prognosis. The client was difficult. You would hope posting on a message board to your colleagues would provide support.

[/quote]

I would just like to say that I agree with everything Claire has done or tried to do. I am sorry for bringing up the "dog with pyo" case which seems to have been thoroughly misunderstood by everybody! My question re. welfare was regarding the owner and the pyo example was what would the vet do if the owner refused surgical treatment in a dog ruptured pyo case and why this was different to an owner refusing surgical treatment in the chicken case - my questions solely referred to the owner's behaviour as a welfare issue and not what the vet did or did not do. This has now been sorted out and the specialist has agreed that the medical treatment is acceptable. I agree with Claire that not every case of owner's making bad decisions can be reported to the RSPCA and I am very sorry if she thought that I was criticising her in any way, that was definitely not my intention.

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

Bibs — Sat, 12 Jan 2013 09:44:30 GMT

I feel bad for you reading this thread Claire, You posted on here for advice, you followed the advice from the specialist who replied on here, and the specialist that you phoned. Surgery sounded like it would be a disaster with post op pain on top. The situation is obviously nothing like a dog with a pyo (routine surgery with good prognosis). You sent the chicken home on pain relief and antibiotics after offering the option of pts and explaining prognosis. The chicken is in a better situation now on these medications than it was before although poor prognosis. The client was difficult. You would hope posting on a message board to your colleagues would provide support.

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

Claire McConnell — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 21:28:48 GMT

[quote user="A Brieger"]And what would their defence be..." I went to a vet to get it treated but they refused even though I told them I was aware of the risks and was willing to pay" How do you know that the chicken hasn't gone to another practice and has now been fixed. I remember a dog that came to our practice as a second opinion with a splenic tumour and euthanasia recommended.. Guess what it had a spindle cell sarcoma and is still alive today after splenectomy 7 years ago. Just because the client doesn't do what you say doesn't mean either that you are right or they should be prosecuted. To think otherwise is quite arrogant. I ask again, is this chicken on pain relief?

[/quote]

I feel you are actually being quite rude. I did not refuse to treat the chicken. The specialist I sought advice from advised me that if I referred teh chicken to him he would not operate on it but treat it medically or ideaaly euthanase it. He advised me not to operate." However without consent he would treat medically which is what I have done according to his advice.

[quote user="A Brieger"] I ask again, is this chicken on pain relief?[/quote]

Yes the chicken was discahrged with baytril and meloxicam. I didnt reply straight away to your dissatisfaction as I do not log on every evening.

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

Claire McConnell — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 21:24:15 GMT

[quote user="A Brieger"]So how has this refusal affected the chicken[/quote]

Personally I did not see my choice as a refusal. I saw it as following advice given by a specialist who specifically said "I recommend against surgery"...

If I had ignored this advice and taken chicken to surgery - this is the typical type of client to complain to rcvsif it had died - rcvs may have said to me "why did you ignore the advice of the specialist??!"

[quote user="A Brieger"]As stated the owner was aware of the risks so there was no risk of being disciplined[/quote]

I disagree that being warned of risks, prevents an owner complaining or making a serious complaint to rcvs, even if nothing has been done wrong. Warning of potential risks just would give you so,me protection/suppport after investiagtion takes place. However ignoring a more specialised vets advice (if strong) I feel is negligent.

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

Claire McConnell — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 21:19:16 GMT

Hi Catherine

Yes the specialist mentioned the implant to me as well, which is a potential plan to try if said chicken survive the immediate crisis. The specialist I spoke to said implant definately worth trying, but first need to get it through the immediate crisis - ongoing anorexia, dehydration, sepsis etc. I have not heard back from owner although one of my colleagues may have. I shall chase this up.

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

Claire McConnell — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 21:12:57 GMT

[quote user="Clair Firth"]

[quote user="Claire McConnell"]

[quote user="james herriot lied"]

Put.the.chicken.to.sleep.

[/quote]

Lol

Please trust me that this was what both my other colleagues who have seen the chicken have advised. - We did

Chicken has now been discharged with antibiotics and antiinfalmms (to die at home) as owners refusing euth even when advised. Have elected against surgery after speaking to specialist today who advised to try and treat medically if owners would not pts (this was before getting back here now to read your views)

As owners have refused pts we have taught owners how to crop feed and they are taking it home to most likely die.

[/quote]

Just out of curiosity (I am a vet student and not in the UK so forgive me if this is a silly question) would this be a welfare case if it was say a bitch with peritonitis after a ruptured pyometra that was sent home to die? I have no idea when it comes to chickens and egg peritonitis but this sounds like a pretty painful and prolonged death Reminds me of an operation I saw recently at uni - a permanent tracheostomy in a pet sheep......owner refused to have it PTS and as equine surgeons (our ruminant dept refused!) had to operate she also complained a lot about the bill - it seems you can't win either way. Just wondering about the welfare implications.....

(Edited to add: I seem to have posted at the same time as Clive! Glad that someone else sees this as a welfare issue)

[/quote]

I personally do think it is a welfare issue, however as the specialist I spoke to to get advice from, said he had had 1-2 survive over the years just on medical tx and supportive care (in fairness this was 1-2 out of 100's) I didn't really see that I could refuse to try. But yes from my point of view it is a welfare issue and I did tell the owner that I didn't feel it was the ethical thing to do........However I am no into trying to report/proecute these types - there is a lot more cruelt done intentionally than by the poor old man that cant just let go of his pet chicken. I'm also sure hundreds of chickens die at home from egg peritoinitis all teh time - owners just dont always notice until their dead - and not noticing is probably a bigger cruelty in some ways.

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

Claire McConnell — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 21:12:57 GMT

[quote user="Clair Firth"]

[quote user="Claire McConnell"]

[quote user="james herriot lied"]

Put.the.chicken.to.sleep.

[/quote]

Lol

Please trust me that this was what both my other colleagues who have seen the chicken have advised. - We did

As owners have refused pts we have taught owners how to crop feed and they are taking it home to most likely die.

[/quote]

(Edited to add: I seem to have posted at the same time as Clive! Glad that someone else sees this as a welfare issue)

[/quote]

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

Malcolm Ness — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 16:38:22 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]True, with that avatar you could be a gal with a strong jaw and hair tied tight back...[/quote]

Perhaps, but even in Newcastle's Bigg Market on a drunken Friday night, she would still be dancing on her own come closing time.

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:40:16 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

Massively fighting the urge to shout 'No, I'M JHL'

[/quote]

In all honesty, young man, you can be if you want. This much responsibility for the moral fibre of the site weighs heavily on my shapely frame.

As people seem fascinated by me, right down to whether I'm male or female, I thought I'd post an avatar.

And keep them guessing.

[/quote]

True, with that avatar you could be a gal with a strong jaw and hair tied tight back...

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

james herriot lied — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 08:42:58 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]

Massively fighting the urge to shout 'No, I'M JHL'

[/quote]

In all honesty, young man, you can be if you want. This much responsibility for the moral fibre of the site weighs heavily on my shapely frame.

As people seem fascinated by me, right down to whether I'm male or female, I thought I'd post an avatar.

And keep them guessing.

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 10 Jan 2013 00:43:58 GMT

Massively fighting the urge to shout 'No, I'M JHL' In an I'm Spartacus sort of way...

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 09 Jan 2013 13:12:42 GMT

hahaha - no need to discuss this further - how about we agree to diasagree?

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

CatherineThomas — Wed, 09 Jan 2013 13:12:05 GMT

Claire does mention in her reply that it was sent home with antibiotics and antiinflammatories. So yes it has been given pain relief.

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

james herriot lied — Wed, 09 Jan 2013 13:07:26 GMT

Can we either drop thisone on here, or else start a new thread?

We could start fights in empty rooms......

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 09 Jan 2013 13:04:33 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]As to the anon vs pseudonym debate, it rolls on. Arlo has my details - when he emails me, it's in my own name rather than my pseudonym. [/quote]

Yes - we have been there before, but it remains the case to the vast majority of the members on this forum you are anonymous, regardless of the fact you always use the same username. You can post anything you wish, and decide whether or not you want someone else to know who you are. Afterall, even though you say you will tell anyone who asks what your name is, you can choose not to do so if you wish. Those of us using our real names cannot do so.

Just for the record, I really don't care what your reasons are or, for that matter, who you are. Makes no difference to me. But please stop saying that you aren't anonymous just because the moderator and a few selected people know your real identity.

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

james herriot lied — Wed, 09 Jan 2013 13:03:46 GMT

[quote user="A Brieger"]Oh for goodness sake. IT'S been asked before I ask again

[/quote]

Relax. My fault for making an assumption - really not anything for us to be arguing about, given the context of the thread. My apologies.

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

james herriot lied — Wed, 09 Jan 2013 13:02:35 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

I assume that too is OK with you.

[/quote]

It's not remotely within my purview to be OK or not, is it? The only thing I'm not OK with is the implication that I believe myself to have any authoritative or moral advantage: I respect your views and fully support your right to your views. Just pointing out that the forum rules / guidelines dictate that the anon log-in isn't to be used for inflammatory or controversial posts, or indeed for having a difference of opinion on clinical matters. As somebody who's needed to use it on more than one occasion - and it's been of immense usefulness to me - I'm perhaps a little sensitive to its misuse. I apologise if you feel that this was in some way a personal attack; not so.

I have no issue with your opinion - I'm on the same side, to be honest.

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

Chris Geddes — Wed, 09 Jan 2013 12:11:15 GMT

[quote user="A Brieger"] I ask again, is this chicken on pain relief?

[/quote]

You didn't ask again - it was the Anon who asked before, who isn't you.

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

An On MRCVS — Wed, 09 Jan 2013 11:45:38 GMT

Well I'm not A Brieger and don't know who he/she is but agree with what has been said. I posted under anon for my own reasons as in this particular instance, I do not wish to be identified in this case. Is that OK with you? As for mudslinging there was non of that in my post, just a different opinion, I assume that too is OK with you.

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

james herriot lied — Wed, 09 Jan 2013 11:28:00 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]From 1 anon to another... Stop ducking the issue, is my argument less valid because I don't want to be identified?

[/quote]

I'm not ducking anything: not sure what you would wish me to say, other than to agree that analgesia is mandatory in any case like this. No arguments there.

There have been some historic issues with mudslinging, using an anon log-in; Arlo has subsequently threatened to remove the facility, which wouldn't be a good thing generally. Many of us will post anonymously when looking for advice, where for various reasons we can't identify ourselves. But it's not for presenting an argument or having a pop.

As to the anon vs pseudonym debate, it rolls on. Arlo has my details - when he emails me, it's in my own name rather than my pseudonym. Knowing that you're called A Brieger (admittedly, I'm making a bit of an assumption here, but tying posts together) hasn't given me any insight into you at all. But as I always say, if you want to PM me to find out who I am, carry on. I'm just as traceable as you are, should I break forum rules or defame somebody - I'm not actually hidden in any way.

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

Bob Russell — Wed, 09 Jan 2013 10:47:51 GMT

The bird has gone home with treatment, not inappropriate in my view. Most of us are surgically experienced enough to do a fair job on a rupture canine pyo but few are surgically experienced with a similar procedure in birds.

I have seen the insides of many thousands of chickens over the years and it is rare that they do things by halves. The coelomic cavity is likely to be totally healthy (therefore surgery has a reasonable chance of success) or it will be a complete mess and euthanasia can be justified whilst the bird is anaesthetised and every one can have a clear conscience! The latter is far, far more likely in my experience.

Sending the bird home without any treatment would pose an ethical problem for me. Antibiotics may help and allow a return to some quality of life but most owners with this attitude usually come to their senses when they get home and have time to think about it!

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 09 Jan 2013 10:20:22 GMT

I'm another who considers this should be a prosecution case

Wynne

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

CatherineThomas — Wed, 09 Jan 2013 09:14:12 GMT

I've had a couple of cases now where I have used a suprelorin implant which seems to have worked really well. I don't think they were aa bad as this case tho, but it would be worth a try if the owner is adament that they dont want pts.

Re: chicken ovariohysterectomy

CatherineThomas — Wed, 09 Jan 2013 09:11:39 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I would have thought a VS would share some measure of blame for refusing to operate on a ruptured pyo in a bitch if the owner was willing to pay and accepted the risks. Why should a chicken be different? I hope it at least went home with some pain relief?

[/quote]

Because a ruptured pyo in a bitch has a reasonable chance of recovery with surgery. So therefore I would hope that a VS would not refuse to perform surgery. But in the chicken's case the chance of survival is minimal at best. In the case of a ruptured pyo I think that thorough flushing of the abdomen is probably the most important part, you can't do this in a chicken. I would also have a dog like that on a combination of antibiotics including iv infusions. Could you do the same in a chicken? Plus the surgery is a lot more complicated so higher risk of complicaions. All of the specialists I've ever spoken to about this have said that surgery is useless in these cases and Marie seems to say similar. So therefore the OP is right to refuse surgery.