Bitch Mating Question

Re: Bitch Mating Question

Alan Tevendale — Mon, 24 Dec 2012 14:58:45 GMT

Charging by time is pretty much what we do for our farmers. Since we changed to doing this it really has helped to motivate some of our less organised farmers into sorting themselves out.

We do charge differently however for professional working time vs professional talking time. This reflects the increase in overheads such as ultrasound scanners, instrument sterilisation etc that we would not otherwise have when we are talking through farm records etc.

Re: Bitch Mating Question

Malcolm Ness — Mon, 24 Dec 2012 11:09:50 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]Wellies on to wellies off so set up and clean up time included[/quote]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]Sounds like the best way of charging for the work,[/quote]

It must be a good method if he can afford to have one pair of wellies for working and another pair just for driving!

Re: Bitch Mating Question

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 24 Dec 2012 09:40:29 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]The question I would like to ask Michael is whether he starts charging for his time as soon as he arrives on the farm, so including the equipment setting up time, or when he starts scanning?[/quote]

Wellies on to wellies off so set up and clean up time included. If we chat for half an hour about the milk price I don't keep the clock running, if we discuss the intricacies of environmental mastitis control then I do.

[/quote]

Sounds like the best way of charging for the work, as you said in your previous post it rewards the well organised farmers, and hopefully motivates the less well organised to do better.

Re: Bitch Mating Question

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 22 Dec 2012 11:42:27 GMT

Re: Bitch Mating Question

Thomas Johnson — Sat, 22 Dec 2012 09:56:01 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]I just meant the scan. I can't understand why you'd charge someone time in one location and £2 for a scan and then 40 quid at the clinic for the same thing, provided you're doing exactly the same thing.

[/quote]

The question I would like to ask Michael is whether he starts charging for his time as soon as he arrives on the farm, so including the equipment setting up time, or when he starts scanning? If the former then the charging structure works, as the £20 charge at the surgery presumably includes the time taken to set-up the equipment.

Re: Bitch Mating Question

James Laidlaw — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 19:14:25 GMT

I just meant the scan. I can't understand why you'd charge someone time in one location and £2 for a scan and then 40 quid at the clinic for the same thing, provided you're doing exactly the same thing.

Re: Bitch Mating Question

Wren — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 17:43:47 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]

Why charge differently, just because of who the client is or where the work is done?

[/quote]

Because if I visit the hunt kennels (next door to my house) at my convenience ie. at the start or end of the working day when I'm at home anyway I feel it's churlish to charge a call out fee (~£50). If they actually call me out during the working day, sure, but we're in a rural area where old-fashioned values are prized and there's a lot of give and take. If they can help me out at any point in return they are happy too. All clinical work is obviously charged for at our normal rates and we're a business, not a charity, but I like to think that we remain well thought of in, and part of, the community. Maybe it's different in an urban SA practice.

Re: Bitch Mating Question

James Laidlaw — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 14:31:22 GMT

Interesting food for thought on charging by time and how the large animal side woks compared to the small animal side. I'd warrant cost may be a large part of why he prefers not to go in to the clinic.

Re: Bitch Mating Question

Wren — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 13:48:04 GMT

Sorry for posting and running, have been busy!

In answer to the various points....

I think we're just going to jab with alizin anyway. The dog in question is not one the huntsman would have chosen to use for breeding, and not to this bitch so he doesn't want the litter (wish there was more of this thinking...). I could wait and scan, but I'm leaving this job/area in under 4 weeks so I won't be around to do it and he'd have to use our small animal side. He prefers his horse vet... Plus I'd probably scan it and charge on a time basis, as we do with most of the large animal work, which works out fairly cheap. The kennels is virtually next door to my house so they don't get a visit charge. It wouldn't be an expensive scan! A scan in the surgery by a small animal vet would be £41+VAT, with a strong chance of still needing the Alizin.

I'm not sure about manual palpation. I'm good with them at near-term, assuming more than one puppy, but foxhounds, whilst thin by pet-dog standards, are very muscular. On Tuesday they ran about 18 miles as the crow flies, and probably twice that in reality, all through deep mud. We're talking about hugely fit animals. Litter size? Not extreme in my experience. 4-6 would be average I'd say. They do make very cute puppies though

Re: Bitch Mating Question

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 13:21:54 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]Why charge differently, just because of who the client is or where the work is done?[/quote]

I'm more than happy working on a time basis. I honestly can't see how it can take 10 minutes to scan the bitch, but it's not me that's doing it. With cows If less than 10/12 weeks I always check for a foetal heartbeat and that can be concluded in less than 30 seconds scanning time. Longer if you pick up something weird.

What I would love to do is charge everything on time. Absorb the cost of the ultrasound machine, xrays etc and anything that took my time was billed for per minute allowing for all overheads minus consumables and drugs. That would include phone calls, insurance paperwork etc etc. If you had a slow owner asking a million questions and the consult takes 20 minutes then she'd be charged for that. Stitches out - 3 minutes etc etc.

I actually think that time (how we do 90% of the farm work) is the most fair. It rewards people who are ready and have good efficient handling systems and penalises people if they want to use me as a labourer getting cows in out of the field. I'm not sure my time is magically worth more because I have using an ultrasound scanner. You can't set a price that is fair for everyone - billing actual time taken is fair.

Re: Bitch Mating Question

CatherineThomas — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:27:28 GMT

We charge £76 for a pregnancy scan. I don't remember the price ever really being a problem for our clients. The people who want a scan are willing to pay for it. The people who don't want to pay that price are usually the ones who also don't want to pay for a consultation. We have just bought a fancy new ultrasound machine so we have to cover the cost of that somehow. And a 15 min consult is included in that price. Plus a print out if they want it.

We charge £96 for the first x-ray and £38 for second and subsequent ones. I would say that an x-ray probably takes around about the same time as an ultrasound.

Re: Bitch Mating Question

James Laidlaw — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:22:15 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"][quote user="David Mills"]

£60 for a preg diagnosis that takes 30-60s?? Do you sex and give the breed of the puppies for this??

[/quote] All depends on what value you put on your time and equipment.

[/quote]

So, do you count puppies? Is that 60s worth more (£1 per second) than a £30 consult for 10 minutes? Seriously, I'm intrigued by this costing. By that rationale, for an actual diagnostic ultrasound of, say, 15 minutes, you're looking at £900. Is that what you charge if your time and expertise worth that much?

[/quote]

By this same logic and extrapolation, you charge no more than £3 for a pregnancy scan? Note this is your rationale, not mine.

I think we charge about £30-40 per 5 minutes for ultrasonography. I don't usually charge more than half an hour for full abdominal scan. Pregnancy diagnosis would be between 5 and 10 minutes depending on information wanted, ease of compliance of patient (and client!) and what we are wanting to no. You can do a bit more than just yes/no, but if someone wants just yes or no it'd end up between 5 and 10 minutes charging time I would imagine.

Re: Bitch Mating Question

James Laidlaw — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:18:14 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]Do you not feel charging 2 pounds is undercharging and undermining your professional fees and abilities as well as your image?[/quote]

I acknowledge that our scanner is not ideal for this job. I'd guess I scan more than 100 cows per week on average (40 to go and do when I finish typing this!). Someone mentioned owner expectations - mostly farm clients or working dogs (this is a hunt animal) just want a yes or no. If they want the fuss and counselling then they can pay for that! Comparing a fussy pet owner to a farmer presenting his collie dog during a cow scanning session is not a fair comparison. I wouldn't charge £2 at the surgery, just meaning that if it takes 90 seconds to put the scanner I am already wearing on the bitch then that technically only costs a couple of pounds.

I will go now and scan some cows!

[/quote]

Why charge differently, just because of who the client is or where the work is done?

I understand the basis of the argument that farm clients are more cost conscious and want the best value for their money, but then aren't you unfairly treating clients at the surgery by charging them differently, if you are performing the exact same procedure?

I think there's an interesting mindset with vets compared to other professionals and we have all undercharged or discounted at some point or other in our careers, I think this is also a big reason why we'll never see the income of our professional peers (try getting a discount from your dentist or lawyer!) and also think it's something that may hamper us as we continue to fight the increasing number of vets in this country and having less clients to draw on as more practices compete for the same number of clients. I don't think I want to have a client base consisting of people who want the cheapest option all the time.

Re: Bitch Mating Question

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 11:05:40 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]Do you not feel charging 2 pounds is undercharging and undermining your professional fees and abilities as well as your image?[/quote]

I will go now and scan some cows!

Re: Bitch Mating Question

Bibs — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:56:59 GMT

I just checked and we charge £41 for a pregnancy scan, and that includes the consultation of about 15 minutes.

It's interesting because I think it's all about client expectations.

We could stick the scanner on and just say yes/no but I think our clients would not be satisfied. Around here they are often breeders of small pet dogs. If they are not experienced then they want to talk about whelping / worming / feeding etc. and they want a really good look at the scan pictures. If they are experienced breeders then they usually want to chat to their usual vet about something. In other places client's might think it's way OTT to have a long chat about a pregnant dog.

If you charge more then they probably expect more. If they expect more you probably have to charge more to match the time used. Matching expectations for where you work is what I mean anyway.

Re: Bitch Mating Question

James Laidlaw — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:44:55 GMT

Do you not feel charging 2 pounds is undercharging and undermining your professional fees and abilities as well as your image? Fine it's quick and easy to do, but things are quick and easy because of your studying, degree and professional ongoing learning, not everyone is able to pick up a scanner and evaluate what they are looking at to the degree you are. I think my first boss always said that discounting was always done wrong, especially farm vets. New grads charged the best for their time, but in most cases it would have been faster for an experienced vet so they should discount so as not to over charge. The partners always charged the least amount of time, and often discounted for well know clients, but in fact should be charging every single minute as they have the most experience and knowledge to draw on. Hopefully you get my point, not trying to be critical, just interested when we have a habit of undercharging as a profession, why we still do it?!

Re: Bitch Mating Question

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:28:33 GMT

[quote user="Louise Alexander"]How much do people charge for x-rays, and I bet it takes less time to take an abdominal x-ray that scan for pregnancy? [/quote]

I'm happy to say.

Computer price for an ultrasound scan is £21.62. Radiographs almost always use the fee of £73.50 as that includes first 2 images and would be rare to take a single image. We do have a fee of £52.50 just for a single image.(ex VAT)

We use an automatic processor and film. We have consumables in terms of film, chemicals, RPA, servicing etc etc. The radiographs are too cheap really, but working on slowly upping the price. It's lovely when you inherit prices with a practice!

The old Aloka cattle scanner is nearly 20 years old. We don't have it serviced. It owes us nothing.

I'm not knocking anyone for charging £60 for a scan. I just can't see our clients standing for that. Usually if it was a pet then there may be a consult fee too. For working/farm dogs they just want to know. I have scanned many farm dogs before starting on the cows. That goes down as hourly rate and they likely paid not much more than £2!

Re: Bitch Mating Question

Mark Holmes — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 10:17:15 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"][quote user="David Mills"]

£60 for a preg diagnosis that takes 30-60s?? Do you sex and give the breed of the puppies for this??

[/quote] All depends on what value you put on your time and equipment.

[/quote]

I don't seen any problem with £60 for an ultrasound if thats what people will pay. There is no reason not to differentially price your services according to the fee the market will bear. If lots of people start turning them down at £60 the there is an argument for reducing your prices but if not... charge £60. I suspect the the demand curve for ultrasound diagnosis is pretty elastic.

Re: Bitch Mating Question

Louise6732 — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 07:20:28 GMT

1. I'd say it takes me longer than 60s to diagnose pregnancy on adbomindal ultrasound, as I like to check and be sure. If +ve, probably about 120s (!) if negative, I check and check and check again!

2. I think £50 is fair enough for the scan, considering we use a consult slot, nurse to help me clip up dog and hold the dog during the scan, my time for the scan and interpretation, saving +/or printing off the image (plus image for client if they like to have that to take home), use of the scanner itself, and my time to write clinical notes afterwards. £50 sound fair?

How much do people charge for x-rays, and I bet it takes less time to take an abdominal x-ray that scan for pregnancy?

(I am not suggesting x-raying for pregnancy diagnosis, I am trying to compare the price of ultrasound to x-raying in general in terms of time only!)

Louise

Re: Bitch Mating Question

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 21 Dec 2012 02:14:29 GMT

I'd charge a consultation fee for palpating it and advising the client. (Do we have a "smirk" emoticon?)

Re: Bitch Mating Question

James Laidlaw — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 23:53:20 GMT

I don't count numbers on scanning due to inaccuracies. I rarely spend as little as 60 seconds with a client either, and think if you charged less than a consult fee for a scan that you're under charging for your use of facilities, equipment, experience, knowledge and time. I'm just a humble employee too. However, if you literally put the cattle scanner on and say yes or no, charge what you like. I don't expect your clients would feel they're getting much value for money in 30 seconds either.

Re: Bitch Mating Question

Bibs — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 23:25:38 GMT

I think we charge around £45 for the scan. I'd like them to be over within 30 seconds but usually the clients we get want to talk a lot during the scan and bring a crowd with them. They also insist on asking you to tell them how many pups there are and I have to keep explaining that I can't tell them accurately etc etc. I would say they are a consult plus extra time in most cases for us. Going back to the original question - I would say Alizin or take your chances. I would assume there is a reasonable chance of pregnancy. I would probably touch on the option of scanning in a few weeks if they want to wait and know for sure but would not encourage Alizin later as a good option.

Re: Bitch Mating Question

David Mills — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 23:24:00 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"][quote user="David Mills"]

£60 for a preg diagnosis that takes 30-60s?? Do you sex and give the breed of the puppies for this??

[/quote] All depends on what value you put on your time and equipment.

[/quote]

Re: Bitch Mating Question

James Laidlaw — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 23:16:12 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]

£60 for a preg diagnosis that takes 30-60s?? Do you sex and give the breed of the puppies for this??

[/quote] All depends on what value you put on your time and equipment.

Re: Bitch Mating Question

David Mills — Thu, 20 Dec 2012 23:03:16 GMT

£60 for a preg diagnosis that takes 30-60s?? Do you sex and give the breed of the puppies for this??