Pet Welfare Alliance

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

plantagenet — Fri, 09 Nov 2012 17:41:33 GMT

I have checked with the relevant manufacturers which vaccine they accept are compatible and stick to that, I primarily use nobivac, so cangigen is fine, I keep a box of 10 durammune and swap the odd dose with my neighbours when needed for the other brands.

Part of this is a bit of self protection in the case of a failure, requiring little effort on my part.

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 09 Nov 2012 16:56:08 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]Now the discussion has moved on to vaccine protocols - just wondering what everyone does when puppies/kittens come in for 2nd vaccs where they have had 1st vaccs elsewhere with a different vaccine?[/quote] So long as the timing of the vaccine is OK they get what I've got, I really can't see there is any issue using a different brand other than pedantism so long as you're not mixing them in the same syringe, currently this is Durammune 8 for dogs so most get coronovirus thrown in which they don't get with most other brands and Fevaxyn Pentofel for cats so likewise they may get a bonus chlamydophila. If they roll up with a puppy expecting a 10 week second shot according to the previous vaccine's protocol they are told I prefer to delay to 12 weeks or they MUST have a third at 16.

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 09 Nov 2012 16:47:06 GMT

Now the discussion has moved on to vaccine protocols - just wondering what everyone does when puppies/kittens come in for 2nd vaccs where they have had 1st vaccs elsewhere with a different vaccine?

For example we've just changed to Pfizer's Vanguard 7 (DA2Pi) and Versifel/Leukocell, but have a fair few puppies that get Nobivac DHPPi as a 1st vacc elsewhere. We try to keep a few nobivac/durammune in stock for these occasions but they're usually spread over all our branches and aren't always to hand. Usually the receptionists are pretty good and find out what they've been vaccinated with first time, but as with all things, you get those that slip through the net.

Our current protocol is to recommend a 3rd vaccine, often just lepto, sometimes just restarting the primary course with our vaccine.

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

Anthony Todd — Thu, 08 Nov 2012 22:19:53 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]but for lepto[/quote]

Yes, had this argument with the Pfizer vet. a few years ago who said "annual boosters unless in a high risk area when it should be done every 6 months", in other words 6 months protection against infection; 12 months if there's no chance of infection.

Laughable advice on vaccine duration of immunity IMHO.

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

james herriot lied — Thu, 08 Nov 2012 19:29:02 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

As for re-starts, WSAVA and ABCD guidance suggests that a single booster is all that is required for lapsed vaccination and for adult cats of unknown vaccination status. This is what I advise.

[/quote]

Certainly for the core components of the vaccine; but for lepto, I'd still go with two shots - we do get a bit of lepto from time to time and I have concerns about the vaccine efficacy at the best of times. Frustratingly, the WSAVA guidelines also say that lepto vaccination should only be contemplated where there is local high risk. I'm not sure I'm psychic enough to determine what a low risk environment is.

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 08 Nov 2012 18:21:06 GMT

I still won't condone a 10 week finish but tell owners that if that is what the puppy had then if definitely should come back at 16 weeks (as should all Rotty's if not all B&T's). Otherwise, a 16 wk vaccination is recommended with a 12 wk finish as per WSAVA but I'm not so pedabtic about it. I say they can go out 2 weeks after 2nd vaccine but there are plenty of ways of socialising/habituating pups without risking going for walkies with a potentially immunologically naive pup: puppy parties, mixing with friends/relatives dogs, carrying them to the park/down the road etc etc.

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

James Laidlaw — Thu, 08 Nov 2012 18:07:23 GMT

I think the general idea is get them socialised starting a week after the 2nd vaccine and then come back for the 16 week, so they aren't staying in until 17-18 weeks. Not sure what everyone else is doing but that's my take on it.

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

KMurphy — Thu, 08 Nov 2012 18:05:06 GMT

For those of you doing vaccines at 16 weeks - have to confess I'm not yet - do you recommend keeping the puppy in until 17/18 weeks old? How does socialisation go in these cases? Genuinely curious, not trying to cause any arguments. We're quite a low parvo area (haven't seen it in 5 years) so I don't do this at present but I am aware of the WSAVA guidelines and the reasons behind it in larger breed dogs. It's largely the extra month of keeping the dog in that's holding me back. It seems a long time to have a pup and not be able to walk it!

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 08 Nov 2012 17:32:43 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Our standard protocol is three injections at 8, 12 and 16 weeks. The modification is we only do a parvo at 16 weeks.[/quote]

We offer the parvo vacc at 16wks to most people and explain why, alot of people do come back for it, especially as a few of our branches are in parvo hot spots at the moment. Black and tan dogs are heavily advised its a good idea to do

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

Bob Russell — Thu, 08 Nov 2012 11:32:15 GMT

We use a 'modified' WSAVA protocol for puppies. Our standard protocol is three injections at 8, 12 and 16 weeks. The modification is we only do a parvo at 16 weeks.

A little explanation and owners seem quite receptive.

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 08 Nov 2012 10:38:57 GMT

[quote user="KMurphy"]

Would insurance companies refuse to pay for treatment because we're working off license? Or would the weight of the WSAVA study be sufficient evidence that the vaccination protocol was sufficient for the cat's needs?

The other situation is restarts - I now discuss with owners and advise that the manufacturer suggests two injections but that there is evidence to show that a single vaccine will do and leave it up to them, to an extent. It's tricky because they're relying on me to give them the correct advice and I feel like I'm not being particularly helpful on some occasions.

[/quote] I've contacted one cut-price insurance company that started trading recently which stipulated that pets must be vaccinated annually. When I discussed this with them and pointed out that the weight of expert opinion (i.e WSAVA and ABCD) indicated that annual vaccination was not necessary, simply said that their product would not be suitable for clients of vets who followed this advice. Taking commercial interest (clearly vaccine companies want to promote annual vaccination!) against expert opinion seems to be a retrograde step to me.

As for re-starts, WSAVA and ABCD guidance suggests that a single booster is all that is required for lapsed vaccination and for adult cats of unknown vaccination status. This is what I advise.

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

KMurphy — Thu, 08 Nov 2012 10:22:53 GMT

[quote user="alison howell"]WSAVA does seem to say that cat vaccines should only be given every 3 years [/quote]

I've had this on my mind for a while. The vaccine license still says annual vaccination so I recommend that for any cat going outdoors. However, for cats that are indoors, or never venture outside the garden I've now started to discuss three-yearly vaccination with clients but an annual healthcheck. The only thing I'm not sure about is where I would stand if a cat developed cat flu when on this protocol. Would insurance companies refuse to pay for treatment because we're working off license? Or would the weight of the WSAVA study be sufficient evidence that the vaccination protocol was sufficient for the cat's needs?

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

Anthony Todd — Thu, 08 Nov 2012 09:26:30 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I only give vaccine boosters every 3 years[/quote]

My counter argument propounded by my old mate PL is that, as far as the client is concerned, if the animal gets the disease which could be avoided by a booster,the vaccine failure rate in the client's eyes is 100%.

A nd really, truly, how common, if ever are true serious vaccine reactions?

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 08 Nov 2012 09:17:45 GMT

[quote user="alison howell"]WSAVA does seem to say that cat vaccines should only be given every 3 years - everywhere I work gives them annually - maybe this should change...[/quote] I only give vaccine boosters every 3 years now for older more sedentary cats unless they go into cattery then its annual. This is after a lifestyle risk analysis and discussion with the owner regarding relative risk and note this in the records to cover my backside as much as anything, some still prefer to have an annual booster.

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

vs0u — Wed, 07 Nov 2012 21:11:07 GMT

Quite a few factual errors there - the WSAVA advise puppy jabs then a booster 1 year later, not that a single jab is enough for life.

Also I was taught that the WSAVA core vaccines apply to USA and that lepto should be considered core in the UK.

Also misleading statements such as 'BSAVA state that vets are still giving unnecessary annual vaccine' I bet BSAVA did not say that annual vaccination is unnecessary.

WSAVA does seem to say that cat vaccines should only be given every 3 years - everywhere I work gives them annually - maybe this should change...

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

plantagenet — Wed, 07 Nov 2012 16:08:34 GMT

just looked at the website - ignorant scare tactics it seems to me - in the middle of dealing with a KC outbreak that is largely due to the local pet sitting service, I'm all for vaccination. Ditto lepto especially in a rural (and pretty rat infested at the moment) area.

Have I ever seen a vaccine adverse reaction that bothered me .... no

Have I ever seen a vaccine preventable disease that bothered me ... yes

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

Virginia Campbell — Wed, 07 Nov 2012 14:51:26 GMT

We got this letter too. Have a look at the Pet Welfare Alliance website. According to the website vaccines can cause a host of problems - sometimes years later. Hmmmmmmmmmm. They don't quote individual papers for all of the conditions they list, but apparently "the science is complex" and most of us vets haven't been taught the relevant facts.

I rang Woodley yesterday and got them to email me some product info so will have a look at that when I get a chance.

We rarely run titres at the moment and usually send them to Glasgow uni (distemper,parvo, hepatitis) when we do.

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 07 Nov 2012 00:52:06 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

If they consider that lepto isn't a core vaccine-have they never heard of zoonoses?

Wynne

[/quote]

Always concerned me that there is no human vaccine (that I am aware of)

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 02 Nov 2012 09:49:22 GMT

If they consider that lepto isn't a core vaccine-have they never heard of zoonoses?

Wynne

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

Rajat — Fri, 02 Nov 2012 09:31:55 GMT

Last I checked with my lab they said that none of the tests for lepto 'immunity' were useful and did not recommend running them as part of a 'pre vaccinal' test panel.

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 02 Nov 2012 09:29:38 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]It also assumes that antibody titres are an adequate proxy for immunity, which they are not.

[/quote] Indeed and as this is one of the biggest bees in my bonnet, I reproach myself for not picking up on it. Most standard laboratory test kits use serum haemagglutination inhibition (HI) tests which will give different results to the neutralising antibody test which gives a much more accurate picture of true immunity and often shows inadequate immunity. It would be interesting to see what method the Woodley kits use.

Re: Pet Welfare Alliance

Mark Holmes — Thu, 01 Nov 2012 19:44:32 GMT

It also assumes that antibody titres are an adequate proxy for immunity, which they are not.