ferret spey

Re: ferret spey

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 09 Oct 2012 00:40:00 GMT

Mark - I'm sure I read somewhere that American ferrets are genetically quite different to European ferrets? Have I got that wrong?

Re: ferret spey

Mark Rowland — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 23:17:53 GMT

Absolutely, 5 stars.

I love reps though. When I phoned Bayer about using Veraflox in exotics I was told that it wasnt being recommended. Yesterday the rep came in to see me with the express motive of pumping me for information of my experience with veraflox in exotics. C'est la vie

Re: ferret spey

Marie Kubiak — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 22:25:50 GMT

Re: HAC and neutering, isn't it simply a case of discussing the options with client and allowing them to make an informed decision? I wouldn't refuse to neuter or refuse to use a suprelorin. I prefer to use to suprelorin generally but if the client needs an absolute that the ferret won't be fertile at any time (rescues/mixed groups mainly) and accepts the increased likelihood of HAC then surgical neutering is a valid choice. I see a lot of adrenal disease in neutered ferrets so definitely feel we do need to be offering suprelorin and take note of the literature out there but it isn't the only option.

With exotics, so much is off licence and without cut and dry official data, sometimes you need to apply common sense, keep up with the published research and do what is best for the animal even if the VMD haven't given the drugs an official seal of approval. Worth talking to reps as there is often a wealth of data there to be perused even if the product hasn't been licensed for non mainstream species.

Marie

Re: ferret spey

Mark Rowland — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 22:25:47 GMT

Thank-you JHL but I will answer the questions.

Hello Anon (are you my red star imp?... Apologies if not)

Yep it would seem Im a bit of a Semmelweis on this one but Im not really. You have to look overseas to see where I get my deductions from. I have had many e discussions with principally Tom Donnelley (co author of Ferrets Rabbits and Rodents Clinical medicine and surgery) on this one. I have spent lots of time reading papers and engaging in discussions on VIN and have to report that in the US they require a bit more proof as I do. They have read all the same papers that we have and are not convinced by the answers. In fact there are some fantastic discussions on this issue in VIN and I would urge those interested and a member of VIN to do a search. In the US there are other causes of HAC being investigated as we speak

Dont take this as me against Deslorelin. I think the stuff is great. I reported its use to treat aggression in a bearded dragon and have at least 2 more species I have used it in, demonstrated with laboratory results that it works and if I get the time will write them up.

I have been accused of being narrow minded on this issue but I think the reverse is true. I am quite happy to change my position should more research direct me to as I have with ferret castrates. I now offer the implant as an alternative and one or two have taken them up (not unsurprisingly most balk at the price).

FWIW I dont routinely recommend vaccinating due to the unavailability of a ferret derived vaccine. The canine vaccine can cause reactions and even has been shown to cause distemper. In a letter to the VR this year warning about an outbreak in the Wolverhampton area the last sentance mentioned anecdotal cases of vaccinated ferrets coming down with CDV. One would wonder if thats how the outbreak started (though that is conjecture).

JHL actually I agree with you. I myself am not convinced by this one 100% which is why I think about this subject a lot. I think its prudent to ask the questions for a non licensed product in a healthy animal and no amount of red starring will stop me. In the Netherlands the incidence has been shown to be 0.55%. I am glad you havent been given the impression that neuter = Cushings, the only reason I mentioned it is thatI have had phone calls from bets who have been given that impression. I do apologise for this however as I did not participate in the webinars I refer to myself.

I dont have all the answers, nor do I pretend to..... but neither does anyone else on this one, not yet anyway. I hope that changes.

Re: ferret spey

james herriot lied — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 19:59:22 GMT

If you want to ask a question in confidence, then use the Anon log-in.

If you just want to have a pop at a colleague, sign in properly, or b*gg*r off. As it happens, I'm not completely persuaded by Mark on this one, but the man is a veritable oracle on all things exotic and deserves better than anonymous sniping.

I reckon.

Re: ferret spey

An On MRCVS — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 18:34:36 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"] Suprelorin is not licensed for ferret Spey. I use non licensed products all the time but in almost all cases it's to treat a condition, not to (supposedly) prevent a condition in a healthy animal. This I take issue with, if it works and is safe, get it licensed say I (this has been done with castrates and as a result I have altered my position slightly. [/quote]

Presumably then Mark - you don't vaccinate ferrets for Distemper, as this is the same scenario - using off-licence products to prevent rather than treat. And, an unvaccinated ferret is far less likely to get Distemper than a neutered ferret is to get Cushings.

Also - you imply there are two camps. I've only ever come across exotics vets who disagree with you on this - can you tell me which agree with you please?

Re: ferret spey

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 08 Oct 2012 15:04:15 GMT

Personal view, and Mark might or might not agree, but I've done a lot and I would say it's a bit late in the year They'll go out of season anyway in winter so unless the vulva is swollen, I'd sooner leave till the spring and then do ASAP when vulval swelling appears-less chance of ovarian fragments being left Also if you use sevo-ferrets are the one species I don't like using it -give cat iv dose of tripple im 1st don't mask down as it's a bit too controlable by itself

Wynne

Re: ferret spey

james herriot lied — Sun, 07 Oct 2012 20:31:40 GMT

To be fair, Mark, I don't think we've been left with the impression that neutering = HAC; it's just that we're now more aware that there's a potential issue. I doubt if in my entire career I've seen 100 ferrets, never mind 200, but I'm pretty sure I've seen at least five cases of HAC; the problem is that none made it to proper testing, let alone treatment, and I wonder what the real incidence actually is.

My understanding - from listening to a good speaker - is to spay, but make aware of the potential issues as one would with, say, a bitch spay or cat dental. These ferrets will die a lot quicker from oestrogen induced AA than from long term HAC, and many will unfortunately fall by the wayside before getting old enough in any case. I've yet to put a suprelorin in a ferret.

Re: ferret spey

Mark Rowland — Sun, 07 Oct 2012 17:20:43 GMT

Been here before....... I Spey ferrets, others don't, opting to use deslorelin implants with the justification that they prevent hyperadrenocorticism (HAC) in ferrets. I still Spey ferrets for the following reasons Incidence of HAC is thought to be about 1 in 200. There have been recent webinars where the delegate has been left with the impression that if they Spey ferrets they will definitely get cushings. This is absolutely NOT the case. Suprelorin is not licensed for ferret Spey. I use non licensed products all the time but in almost all cases it's to treat a condition, not to (supposedly) prevent a condition in a healthy animal. This I take issue with, if it works and is safe, get it licensed say I (this has been done with castrates and as a result I have altered my position slightly. Deslorelin is used to treat HAC I would rather use this to treat the 1 in 200 that get HAC if nuter is PROOVED to be the cause (it hasn't yet but is likely a big factor). I am concerned with a possible rise in oestrogen related anaemia in ferrets where an implant has been placed and the client has just forgotten that it needs replacing (there is little data on the duration in female ferrets). Oestrogen related anaemia is often fatal in ferrets. Hope that explains my position, others have different views. (Sorry if paragraphs are not shown in this post, I did it on my iPad)

Re: ferret spey

Simon Neuhoff — Sun, 07 Oct 2012 16:01:11 GMT

Mark re ferret spays in general - I have read mixed things regarding increased risk of adrenal issues in spayed ferrets and some suggestion that using Suprelorin is now the recommended option - but there seems to be mixed/differing opinions on this?

Re: ferret spey

Mark Rowland — Sun, 07 Oct 2012 15:49:52 GMT

The only thing I would add is to make sure there are no ovarian remnants which is a fairly common post op issue. it is easy to see why when the ovaries are palpated, they are quite discoid and flattened in the surrounding fat. I excise as much of this fat as possible at the same time. Also dont panic if 3 days after the op the suture line and surrounding gets really bruised. This is quite a common occurrence and resolves itself.

Goodluck

Re: ferret spey

Utlendigur — Sun, 07 Oct 2012 12:53:32 GMT

The only thing I'd add is to go in more caudally than you would with a cat - usually about half way between umbilicus and pubis.

Re: ferret spey

David Mills — Sun, 07 Oct 2012 12:38:24 GMT

Almost exactly the same as a cat, or rather a very neat cat - midline, obvious uterus, easily handleable stumps. Normally use intradermals to close - have seen ferrets eviscerate themselves with nylon skin sutures.