Aggressive dog

Re: Aggressive dog

Utlendigur — Sat, 08 Sep 2012 13:58:02 GMT

[quote user="tess"]had put O's 10 year old son in hospital by biting him on the scrotum[/quote]

[quote user="tess"]O didn't want PTS, didn't want castration[/quote]

I'm hoping you meant "of the dog"

Re: Aggressive dog

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 08 Sep 2012 07:59:32 GMT

Wow - when a dog is that far around the bend, it's for the best, really...

Re: Aggressive dog

rhona kerr — Sat, 08 Sep 2012 06:57:07 GMT

OMG Holly!! Unbelievable support there!

Liking the oral sedation suggestions, most aggressive/out of control dog I ever had to pts was a 1yo Lab, the owner just handed it over and left, was having pts because it had removed the tip of his finger when he told it to move over. Had been to puppy classes, etc, had a half hour call with hysterical teenagers who didn't want their dog pts, but didn't want to ever say "no"/train the dog because a) it was cruel and b) they were terrified after seeing their Dad hospitalised and maimed. Used the slip leads through the kennel door and bum injection of lots of dom and then some euthatal, but very scary. Dealt with lots of other aggressive dogs without too much trouble AS LONG AS OWNER WILLING AND ABLE. PTS a little crossbred that went mental in surgery 3 months after long talk with owner regarding aggression/fear, we may be first to be bitten, but not last, etc, had the kids with her, etc, etc, only because it put one of the kids in hospital, very close to minus an eye. She thought I was being pompous and egotistical and frightening her dog!!! (David, comments........?)

I ALWAYS discuss aggression in surgery as the precursor to more or check on home behaviour - how would I have felt if I had said to the owner of course it's just because she is here and I'm scary, then the dog blinded the child! If you feel there is trouble behind it then you have to educate the owner, we are the professionals able/trained to recognise the problem and we have to make them aware, hopefully also make ourselves approachable so that they will come back for advise/help when they start to see the problem at home.

A friend also ended up with a Weimariner that she was trying to use the 2 slip lead method on for pts, she never injected the dog, it spun and spun and attempted to attack repeatedly until it strangled itself, she still has nightmares......

Re: Aggressive dog

Rob Loxley — Fri, 07 Sep 2012 23:59:51 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Holly Dale"]On the upside, my boss rang the owners, apologised for my 'aggressive' comment and refunded the cost of the last consult as a goodwill gesture(!)[/quote]

"On the upside", don't make me laugh!

[/quote]

I think Holly had tongue firmly in cheek!

Re: Aggressive dog

Anthony Todd — Fri, 07 Sep 2012 14:05:15 GMT

[quote user="Holly Dale"]On the upside, my boss rang the owners, apologised for my 'aggressive' comment and refunded the cost of the last consult as a goodwill gesture(!)[/quote]

"On the upside", don't make me laugh! What would your boss have done if you'd had a mangled hand and couldn't work as a vet, ever?

Never, ever, ever, put anyone, including yourself, at any risk of any injury by any animal ever.

Re: Aggressive dog

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 07 Sep 2012 13:47:07 GMT

Tess He obviously thought you had a magic wand! If only!

Wynne

Re: Aggressive dog

tess — Fri, 07 Sep 2012 13:39:23 GMT

Similar story here. Cocker Spaniel had put O's 10 year old son in hospital by biting him on the scrotum through his pyjamas. This wasn't the first attack and son was terrified.

O didn't want PTS, didn't want castration, didn't want referral for behavioural therapy. I ended up asking him what he did want, to which of course he had no answer. I told him I was recommending PTS because next time it could be worse. He went off in a huff "to think about it" and never came back.

Re: Aggressive dog

Vicki Mason — Fri, 07 Sep 2012 12:31:39 GMT

I had a good client with a rescue dog that she adopted, and it was frankly very aggressive. I remember discussing it with her at length, about the dangers posed to herself and also grandchildren visiting etc, and that I recommended the dog be put to sleep. It had already nipped a few people by this stage and was dreadful in the clinic too. She was such a kind hearted lady that it wasn't until this dog actually seriously injured her and she required microsurgery on her arm that the dog was brought in for euthanasia.

Very sad - sometimes people just won't heed warnings.

Re: Aggressive dog

Charlotte Marshall — Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:20:50 GMT

I have had a few aggressive dogs to deal with in the past. One a GSD which got given a large dose of ACP tabs beforehand which meant it was unable to walk. It still was going for you though but at least you could then get a dog catcher on to it then jab it with dom and torb. I think I treated it for various things 3 or 4 times like this before it was finally pts.

I have given a handful of phenobarb tabs rather than acp if the animal was definately going to be euthanased which usually works.

Last time we had an aggressive shah pei in which has to be sedated every time for examination as it cannot be muzzled, we used the slip lead technique but with the extra of a board held against the side which stopped the dogs rear end swinging around (pinning it against the table/wall) making it easier to jab. That worked really well.

Re: Aggressive dog

plantagenet — Sun, 26 Aug 2012 10:27:58 GMT

I would always support my staff 100% in this situation - poor you. Don't doubt yourself as a result.

Has Mr Mills every been badly bitten I wonder, or had to face the consequences of a member of staff or the public having been bitten while he had the duty of care?

We had a very aggressive dog to PTS after it went for someone. Sensible owners who could muzzle thank goodness, but I switched to Rompun after the Domitor didn't touch it. The owners had my sympathy since they had taken on the dog as a stray and tried their hardest, an understandable error had let it get free and they made the decision after they realised what could have happened - luckily the injured person had been holding some boxes which got shredded instead of her.

Re: Aggressive dog

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sat, 25 Aug 2012 20:13:59 GMT

[quote user="Holly Dale"] On the upside, my boss rang the owners, apologised for my 'aggressive' comment and refunded the cost of the last consult as a goodwill gesture(!)[/quote]

Jeez. Words fail me. What a t***er.

Re: Aggressive dog

bob lehner — Sat, 25 Aug 2012 18:21:29 GMT

Best thing you can do is make absolutely sure that the receptionists know that next time these clients book an appointment it must be with the boss and no-one else - let him (or her) deal with the problem and see how he/she copes !

Re: Aggressive dog

Julie Innes — Sat, 25 Aug 2012 13:53:20 GMT

[quote user="Holly Dale"]. On the upside, my boss rang the owners, apologised for my 'aggressive' comment and refunded the cost of the last consult as a goodwill gesture(!)

[/quote]

Doesn't sound like an upside to me!! If I was your boss, I would have phoned the owners, backed up your coments and asked them not to bring the dog back!!! Way to support your staff

Re: Aggressive dog

Dagmar Steele — Sat, 25 Aug 2012 10:04:07 GMT

[quote user="Holly Dale"] On the upside, my boss rang the owners, apologised for my 'aggressive' comment and refunded the cost of the last consult as a goodwill gesture(!)

[/quote]

I'm a boss myself and in utter disbelief! Disgusting.... I always stand behind my employees although I sometimes might talk to them afterwards as I did recently when one of them told a client that worming a dog once a year is sufficient and what she does for her own dogs. I did not however tell the client that but talked them through a kind of risk assessment.

Re agressive dogs I do think it is our responsibility to warn owners about it and the risks involved instead of pretending not to see a disaster being about to happen.

Re: Aggressive dog

bob lehner — Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:11:55 GMT

[quote user="Holly Dale"]On the upside, my boss rang the owners, apologised for my 'aggressive' comment and refunded the cost of the last consult as a goodwill gesture(!)[/quote]

Spineless b*****d - clients like this should be given their marching orders p.d.q.

Re: Aggressive dog

Rajat — Sat, 25 Aug 2012 00:15:19 GMT

[quote user="Holly Dale"]Following this thread with interest, especially as I've recently had to deal with an exceptionally aggressive dog- a 16mo Rottie X mastiff that apparently had a tick on its belly. Unpredictable and unable to examine in the consult. Unable to muzzle as lunging for me and owners won't keep hold. Finally got it in yesterday already muzzled to examine but still impossible as 50kg of dog swinging round still meant we all got battered. Had a stern talk with owner as this dog has already bitten several people in the street. The owners have no money(obviously) so not willing to consent for sedation, even when offered for free. Got into work this morning to find a complaint from said owners, saying that they'd been offended by me calling their beloved pet 'aggressive'. I'm afraid that I'm with the majority here- my hands, face and livelihood are a lot more important than this dog's tick! Dealing with these animals shouldn't just be 'part of the job'. On the upside, my boss rang the owners, apologised for my 'aggressive' comment and refunded the cost of the last consult as a goodwill gesture(!)

[/quote]

Wow. If all you did was that and the boss apologizes to the owner...well that's a slap in the face AFAIAC. If that was a prevalent attitude amongst the powers that be where I worked, I wouldn't work there.

Re: Aggressive dog

Lorna McHardy — Fri, 24 Aug 2012 23:07:25 GMT

[quote user="Holly Dale"] Got into work this morning to find a complaint from said owners, saying that they'd been offended by me calling their beloved pet 'aggressive'.

[/quote] Given the animal you describe, any half-sensible boss would respond to that by explaining to the owners that their beloved pet is not only aggressive but dangerous, and that they need to deal with that before they bring him back to the surgery.

[quote user="Holly Dale"] On the upside, my boss rang the owners, apologised for my 'aggressive' comment and refunded the cost of the last consult as a goodwill gesture(!)

[/quote]

Aaarrrggghhhhhhh! Find a better boss, would be my suggestion. Not only does that undermine you, but it's actually quite an irresponsible thing to do... after all, the dog is aggressive.

Re: Aggressive dog

Cat Henstridge — Fri, 24 Aug 2012 22:34:40 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]One thing about the veterinary profession is that one can always rely on being fully supported by bosses and professional colleagues when the going gets tricky[/quote]

Really?! In my experience they nearly always side with the client and give them a discount, god forbid they go away and bad mouth the practice!

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]- some would rather appease an anal orifice client that stand full square behind a colleague who has done their best.[/quote]

That's more like it!

Re: Aggressive dog

Clive Ansell — Fri, 24 Aug 2012 20:26:54 GMT

[quote user="Holly Dale"]

Had a stern talk with owner as this dog has already bitten several people in the street.

[/quote]

Should this not be passed over to the police, as it is a criminal offence to own an out of control or aggressive dog? they should then send an armed response team to shoot it. I would go as far to say that you are duty bound to report it to the police. Someone may be seriously injured or killed by the thing.

[quote user="Holly Dale"]

The owners have no money(obviously) so not willing to consent for sedation, even when offered for free.

[/quote]

Why on earth would anyone offer free sedation? if the dog needs sedating because of aggression the fee should be as high as possible. Don't you guys value you're own time and expertise? not to mention the cost of Domitor. In any event, it is not essential treatment and the tick would fall off after about a week. I was taught in parasitology that there was little or no benefit in pulling ticks off anyway.

[quote user="Holly Dale"]

Got into work this morning to find a complaint from said owners, saying that they'd been offended by me calling their beloved pet 'aggressive'. I'm afraid that I'm with the majority here- my hands, face and livelihood are a lot more important than this dog's tick! Dealing with these animals shouldn't just be 'part of the job'. On the upside, my boss rang the owners, apologised for my 'aggressive' comment and refunded the cost of the last consult as a goodwill gesture(!)

[/quote]

One thing about the veterinary profession is that one can always rely on being fully supported by bosses and professional colleagues when the going gets tricky - some would rather appease an anal orifice client that stand full square behind a colleague who has done their best. Ridiculous!

Re: Aggressive dog

Joyce Whitehead — Fri, 24 Aug 2012 20:25:40 GMT

Holly - all I can say is -

If I had been your boss, I am sure I would have written not only in support of you, but also telling the owners politely to seek treatment elsewhere! And there would have been no refund either - life is too short to deal with people like this who will not listen to any advice.

Re: Aggressive dog

Holly Norman — Fri, 24 Aug 2012 19:48:34 GMT

Following this thread with interest, especially as I've recently had to deal with an exceptionally aggressive dog- a 16mo Rottie X mastiff that apparently had a tick on its belly. Unpredictable and unable to examine in the consult. Unable to muzzle as lunging for me and owners won't keep hold. Finally got it in yesterday already muzzled to examine but still impossible as 50kg of dog swinging round still meant we all got battered. Had a stern talk with owner as this dog has already bitten several people in the street. The owners have no money(obviously) so not willing to consent for sedation, even when offered for free. Got into work this morning to find a complaint from said owners, saying that they'd been offended by me calling their beloved pet 'aggressive'. I'm afraid that I'm with the majority here- my hands, face and livelihood are a lot more important than this dog's tick! Dealing with these animals shouldn't just be 'part of the job'. On the upside, my boss rang the owners, apologised for my 'aggressive' comment and refunded the cost of the last consult as a goodwill gesture(!)

Re: Aggressive dog

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 24 Aug 2012 17:42:34 GMT

Bob - it sounds great on paper but it would be slow and assuming we were supervising then that makes it expensive.

Re: Aggressive dog

bob lehner — Fri, 24 Aug 2012 16:18:00 GMT

[quote user="Gareth Dowdeswell"]ried feeding it some Pentoject laced food and worked really well, had about 15ml in total in a combination of cheese and spam, after about 30min was sleepy enough[/quote]

I watched the TV program on the Swiss euthanasia clinic 'Dignitas' a while ago. I'm pretty sure the candidates there drink a mug of Pentobarb solution as the lethal cocktail - they give an anti-emetic first to ensure it stays down. Takes about 15-30 minutes for death to ensue - appeared very peaceful.

I've often thought a nice peaceful oral method of euthanasia for our patients might be preferable to the traditional i.v. injection with the hassle of clipping/restraint/potential for things not quite going according to plan - I'm sure many clients (and vets for that matter ) would find it less stressful or dramatic.

Certainly for the very aggressive dog situation it's got to be preferable to virtually throttling with a dog-catcher or looped rope round the neck in order to give an i.m. sedative.

Re: Aggressive dog

Gareth Dowdeswell — Thu, 23 Aug 2012 16:33:25 GMT

Had to PTS an aggressive American Bulldog couple of days ago, owners could just about control it on a lead but they couldn't muzzle and there was no chance of anyone else getting a muzzle on. Tried feeding it some Pentoject laced food and worked really well, had about 15ml in total in a combination of cheese and spam, after about 30min was sleepy enough to Dom/Torb it and then inject it, if we'd waited a bit longer don't think it would have needed the Dom/Torb.

Was a lot less stressful for the dog than the other option of trying to get it on a dog catcher (and even that would have been endangering staff), would never have thought to do it if I hadn't read this thread, thanks to those who suggested it!

Re: Aggressive dog

Julie Innes — Sat, 11 Aug 2012 21:59:41 GMT

Gosh, my sympathies! I have a very aggressive dog that attends my surgery, but the owner is well aware of his problems, and can manage (with a degree of difficulty and danger to themselves!) to muxxle him before he comes in. Even with the muzzle on, he is scary- he lunges suddenly at you. Last time, when the muzzle cane off, I had to quickly shut the door on him to prevent him leaping for my blummin throat!

That being said, his owners are fairly sensible. Apparently he is fine at home, and they don't walk him near anyone else. Unfortunately he has atopy (he's a GSD), and we frequently treat him on the basis of photographs from the owner's mobile- not ideal, I grant you, but safer for all concerned and less stressful for the dog.

On the other hand I had a client call up whose mastiff we had never seen who wanted treatment on the basis of a photograph, as the dog was "terrible at the vets" I refused, and said we needed to see the dog. In conversation, I remarked to the owner that what worried me more than the dog's anxiety/ aggression was the owner's own anxiety and lack of confidence that he could handle the dog. He said the dog had "ripped muzzles in half" and couldn'r be muzzled. i said we would see how it was. Minimally (and warily!) examined the dog, and it was ok actually. I do see these as challenging cases, and owners obviously have to be made aware of or limitations with these guys.

If your patient has a perineal hernia, operating would just be the start of it- lots of post-op checks/ care, stitches and wounds to be examined...it would be really impractical. It's one of those ops I don't like because of the risk of faecal contamination of the op site/ wound breakdown etc.Sounds like a nightmare in this beast! (Unless you did the op, castrated it and pulled all it's teeth out at the same time!! )