goldfish

Re: goldfish

Mark Rowland — Fri, 08 Jun 2012 22:41:50 GMT

Numbness and reduced perception will only happen just prior to death, i.e. after the pain. Prior to that all the pain associated with frostbite and ice crystal formation in the brain. I suppose the easiest way to get an idea is to get an ice cube out of the freezer and hold it in a clenched fist. Freezing is considered inhumane in the AVMA guidelines on euthanasia.

Hope this helps.

Re: goldfish

plantagenet — Fri, 08 Jun 2012 22:22:15 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]wouldn't common sense be sufficient?[/quote]

not at all in this case. I know relatively little about pain and the perception of pain in lower vertebrates, so I do not assume it is like a mammal. A reasonably slow reduction in body temperature could easily result in a state of reduced perception, without pain, before death follows - that would seem plausible to me. I am interested to know what experiments have been done, so I am asking someone who obviously, being a specialist in that field, knows more - that's all.

Re: goldfish

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 08 Jun 2012 22:16:57 GMT

wouldn't common sense be sufficient?

Re: goldfish

plantagenet — Fri, 08 Jun 2012 22:12:07 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]P.S. dont freeze, slow painful death. (same for the reptiles)[/quote]

I believe you and haven't but read that freezing was a possible method - what measurements have been made to confirm the 'slow, painful' bit - I'm interested here, not antagonistic.

Re: goldfish

Mark Rowland — Fri, 08 Jun 2012 17:15:33 GMT

P.S. dont freeze, slow painful death. (same for the reptiles)

Re: goldfish

Mark Rowland — Fri, 08 Jun 2012 17:14:37 GMT

Actually its easier to recommend the blitzing to a client when the fish is flopping about with its guts hanging out when the cat has brought it in and dropped it.

Dont get me wrong I dont blend them, i only use the practice blender for my patented antibiotic food recipe for fish.

I like the fish medicine actually, this was one of last months inpatients, cool fish

Re: goldfish

plantagenet — Fri, 08 Jun 2012 15:48:08 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]Maceration (e.g. Blender)[/quote]

surely one cut to the back of the neck suffices, blitzing seems unnecessarily messy.

What about putting in a plastic bag of water in the freezer - surely the cold will reduce as much consciousness as a fish has before it dies.

Re: goldfish

bob lehner — Thu, 07 Jun 2012 18:41:26 GMT

Can't help but wonder - here we all are hand-wringing about euthanasing one goldfish ('much loved pet') - yet every single day tens, or probably hundreds, of millions of fish are hauled out of the sea and killed by what I suppose amounts to asphyxiation. Then vast numbers of dead fish are chucked back into the sea because they are not suitable for human use.

I wonder how many of the people who have responded to this thread are happy to eat fish and chips ?

Of course - I 'm not in any way condoning or criticising any of this - I just find all the double standards which apply to animal welfare so very odd.

Re: goldfish

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 07 Jun 2012 10:40:59 GMT

Is this the mutual appreciation society?

Re: goldfish

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 07 Jun 2012 09:10:18 GMT

No worries, you're still da man!

Re: goldfish

Mark Rowland — Thu, 07 Jun 2012 08:42:57 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"][quote user="Mark Rowland"]Neither does clove oil. Taken from AMVA guidelines. Amphibians, Fish, and Reptiles Euthanasia of ectothermic animals must take into account differences in their metabolism, respiration, and tolerance to cerebral hypoxia. In addition, it is often more difficult to ascertain when an animal is dead. Some unique aspects of euthanasia of amphibians, fishes, and reptiles have been described.13,51,186,187 Injectable agents—Sodium pentobarbital (60 to 100 mg/kg of body weight) can be administered intra- venously, intraabdominally, or intrapleuroperitoneally in most ectothermic animals, depending on anatomic features. Subcutaneous lymph spaces may also be used in frogs and toads. Time to effect may be variable, with death occurring in up to 30 minutes.1,187,188 Barbiturates other than pentobarbital can cause pain on injection.189 Clove oil—Because adequate and appropriate clin- ical trials have not been performed on fish to evaluate its effects, use of clove oil is not acceptable.

[/quote]

true, and in my original post, i was suggesting clove oil first, followed by pentobarb, not clove oil alone, for exactly these reasons.

[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification Mark

Re: goldfish

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 07 Jun 2012 07:38:59 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]Neither does clove oil. Taken from AMVA guidelines. Amphibians, Fish, and Reptiles Euthanasia of ectothermic animals must take into account differences in their metabolism, respiration, and tolerance to cerebral hypoxia. In addition, it is often more difficult to ascertain when an animal is dead. Some unique aspects of euthanasia of amphibians, fishes, and reptiles have been described.13,51,186,187 Injectable agents—Sodium pentobarbital (60 to 100 mg/kg of body weight) can be administered intra- venously, intraabdominally, or intrapleuroperitoneally in most ectothermic animals, depending on anatomic features. Subcutaneous lymph spaces may also be used in frogs and toads. Time to effect may be variable, with death occurring in up to 30 minutes.1,187,188 Barbiturates other than pentobarbital can cause pain on injection.189 Clove oil—Because adequate and appropriate clin- ical trials have not been performed on fish to evaluate its effects, use of clove oil is not acceptable.

[/quote]

true, and in my original post, i was suggesting clove oil first, followed by pentobarb, not clove oil alone, for exactly these reasons.

Re: goldfish

Stephen Courtney — Thu, 07 Jun 2012 00:24:51 GMT

The last one I did, I put lethobarb into the bucket he came in, after removing most of the water. i think i used 20ml. I waited till he was nice and stiff, then he went into a bag in the deep freeze.

It worked well and quickly and there were no signs of adverse reaction from the fish, not even any excitement or flapping around, and no agonal activity.

We do have MS222 at one branch but of course no warning, and to be honest I think the stuff must be expired by now!

Re: goldfish

Mark Rowland — Thu, 07 Jun 2012 00:04:03 GMT

Oh you can find lots. I even read of a woman who uses Bacardi. Maceration (e.g. Blender)is a method that can be used but I would reserve it for emergencies only (eg cat got it and guts hanging out at home) and client willing to carry it out. Overdose of MS222 or coelomic pentobarbitone if none available is easiest.

Re: goldfish

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 07 Jun 2012 00:01:17 GMT

Never used MS222 but at £35 in price it's going to be expensive killing a goldfish! (even if that's enough to do 1000 I've only been asked to do 1 in six years).

Blunt trauma to the head is acceptable for line caught fish. Can't see anything wrong with decapitation so long as the child doesn't want to stay!

Re: goldfish

Jenny Smith — Wed, 06 Jun 2012 23:56:12 GMT

I recently had to pts a goldfish, I ended up using an IM injection of ketamine (sorry can't remember the dose... Think it was in the exotics formulary?!) followed by pentobarbital, mainly because I had read that barbiturates can string on injection and didn't release pentobarbital was an exception to that. Annoyingly I knew the exact name of the ms222, just none in stock and only 45 mins notice from booking to arrival time! Mark, while desperately googling I found some reference to decapitation as a method of euthanasia, any thoughts? Jenny

Re: goldfish

Mark Rowland — Wed, 06 Jun 2012 23:45:15 GMT

Neither does clove oil. Taken from AMVA guidelines. Amphibians, Fish, and Reptiles Euthanasia of ectothermic animals must take into account differences in their metabolism, respiration, and tolerance to cerebral hypoxia. In addition, it is often more difficult to ascertain when an animal is dead. Some unique aspects of euthanasia of amphibians, fishes, and reptiles have been described.13,51,186,187 Injectable agents—Sodium pentobarbital (60 to 100 mg/kg of body weight) can be administered intra- venously, intraabdominally, or intrapleuroperitoneally in most ectothermic animals, depending on anatomic features. Subcutaneous lymph spaces may also be used in frogs and toads. Time to effect may be variable, with death occurring in up to 30 minutes.1,187,188 Barbiturates other than pentobarbital can cause pain on injection.189 Clove oil—Because adequate and appropriate clin- ical trials have not been performed on fish to evaluate its effects, use of clove oil is not acceptable.

Re: goldfish

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 06 Jun 2012 20:57:22 GMT

Yes, but with all due respect, research does move on, and sometimes things that were done at one time may not be done at a later date. Alka-seltzer is not considered humane according to current welfare standards.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

We had a fish expert come in to see us at college and the recommendation was Alka Seltza tablets. The chap was a vet. I tried it once and fish went happily to sleep.

[/quote]

Re: goldfish

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 06 Jun 2012 18:53:15 GMT

We had a fish expert come in to see us at college and the recommendation was Alka Seltza tablets. The chap was a vet. I tried it once and fish went happily to sleep.

Re: goldfish

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 06 Jun 2012 17:42:14 GMT

Thanks for the clove oil tip-that's a really useful one

Wynne

Re: goldfish

Lorna McHardy — Wed, 06 Jun 2012 14:12:50 GMT

This is probably a stupid question, but does euthatal in the water work?

Re: goldfish

Lorna McHardy — Wed, 06 Jun 2012 14:11:42 GMT

No MS222. I'm good at veins, but not keen on trying to find one in a wriggling fish - sorry, Marie! The clove oil thing sounds humane... and easy...

Re: goldfish

Dagmar Steele — Wed, 06 Jun 2012 14:02:17 GMT

I was going to suggest clove oil as well. I'm told 17 percent should be enough to kill a fish.

Re: goldfish

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 06 Jun 2012 13:55:02 GMT

Clove oil. Warm up water to comfortably warm, add a few spoonfuls of clove oil, shake 'till it goes cloudy. This is the clove oil becoming an emulsion; and you will have enough dissolved so that the fish will absorb it.

Don't just add it to the water straight up, oil and water don't mix well under ordinary circumstances. Clove oil will sedate them deeply, or if you use enough, makes them stop breathing and die. Then you get the euthatal. (This prevents the whole "trying to jab a wriggling fish" thing that rarely goes well.)

Fish goes floppy, turns over, breathing slows down. If you're lucky and you've gone really overboard, the breathing stops. Don't forget the euthatal if this happens.

Wait 10 minutes as fish have an excellent tolerance for faking death. The books ideally suggest pithing or breaking the vertebrae to make extra extra sure, but I've usually gone for extra euthatal or clove oil, as sending a beloved pet home with a broken neck doesn't really send a very good impression of your practice.

Do NOT add things like indigestion tablets, this is enormously painful and VERY inhumane. (The theory here is that the excess CO2 asphyxiates the fish. The truth is that the pH does a huge swing at the same time, causing enormous discomfort.)

Good luck!

(not every practice has MS-222.)

Re: goldfish

Marie Kubiak — Wed, 06 Jun 2012 13:53:24 GMT

The lateral tail vein is surprisingly easy to find at the tail base otherwise an overdose of buffered MS222 in the water is simple.

Intraperitoneal pentobarb is not as humane but can be a last resort.

Marie