Ferret castrate help

Re: Ferret castrate help

John Rimmer — Tue, 22 May 2012 20:21:22 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"] put in the bold bit as you may need to mention this to the owner.[/quote][quote user="Mark Rowland"]The safety after repeated implantations with Suprelorin in ferrets has not been investigated.[/quote]

So, it lasts 4 years. It isn't given till after puberty. So probably wears off when the ferret is about 5. How long do ferrets usually live to, Mark?

Repeated implantation isn't a problem in dogs, why should it be in ferrets?

Re: Ferret castrate help

John Rimmer — Tue, 22 May 2012 20:12:45 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]my issue is with the use of a non licensed product[/quote]

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]the onus is on Virbac to do the study and get it licensed[/quote]

You just quoted from the data sheet earlier on. It is licensed. Wouldn't get a licence without satisfactory data, same as any other licensed medication.

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]Others Differ and I respect that[/quote]

I am with all the others (exotic and ferret specialists, that is).

Re: Ferret castrate help

John Rimmer — Tue, 22 May 2012 20:09:05 GMT

Why not vasectomy?

1. Not always successful (can re-grow)

2. Expensive

3. More risk than Suprelorin - yes can give 'GA', but this need only be a sniff of gas

4. It gets rid of smell

5. It stops them being aggressive.

6. It stops urine marking.

Re: Ferret castrate help

Rob Loxley — Tue, 22 May 2012 16:57:05 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]Most people dont like the smell which persists if a vasectomy is carried out, but otherwise thats a very good point.[/quote]

I don't like the fact that they all seem to bite me, but it seems to go with the terrritory!

Seriously I think we need to be asking ourselves why we are neutering the animal and who should be benefiting (and certainly who shouldn't be at risk of developing future problems (HAC?) as a result).

Re: Ferret castrate help

Mark Rowland — Tue, 22 May 2012 16:39:21 GMT

Most people dont like the smell which persists if a vasectomy is carried out, but otherwise thats a very good point.

Re: Ferret castrate help

Rob Loxley — Tue, 22 May 2012 16:01:48 GMT

Why not vasectomy?

Re: Ferret castrate help

Mark Rowland — Tue, 22 May 2012 13:32:53 GMT

I agree with a lot of what Kevin has put.

However, I have said before on this topic that my issue is with the use of a non licensed product to treat a condition in a healthy animal where no long term safety data is available. As Virbac themselves have stated, there are no long term saftey studies in this species. My argument in this case is and has been that a dangerous precedant may be set by acting in this way. I agree with the way deslorelin works and agree that it probably will protect ferrets against HAC but my point is that if it is to be used for this reason then the onus is on Virbac to do the study and get it licensed just as a vaccine is licensed to protect healthy animals. When that license is there, I will jump to change my position on this issue. Ferrets can get injection reaction sarcomas, If we were to find that the incidence of this condition was 1 in 150 where the incidence of HAC is 1 in 200, would we then all be deciding that its better to castrate them?

Above all do no harm is what I was always taught and so I would want trials on long term safety and efficacy as any of us would for any product that we are about to give to a healthy animal, especially if repeated anaesthetics are to be required to place them.

Others Differ and I respect that

Re: Ferret castrate help

Utlendigur — Tue, 22 May 2012 13:19:52 GMT

Just dug out the CPD notes - was by Kevin Eatwell (Edinbugh University? I think).

"The pineal gland and melatonin has an inhibitory effect on the hypothalamus which is removed with longer days. The hypothalamus then produces gonadotrophin releasing hormone (GnRH) which stimulates luteinising hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating hormone (FSH) release in a pulsatile fashion which stimulates the gonads to produce testosterone or oestrogen. This causes the testes to descend and enlarge in males and induces oestrus in females. These hormones provide negative feedback on the hypothalamus and pituitary preventing excessive secretion of GnRH, LH or FSH.

Deslorelin implants are available and licensed for canine use in some countries. A 4.7 mg implant can be placed subcutaneously (usually under anaesthesia). This is effective for 2 years post implantation (mean time until return of oestrus was 698 days) and is currently the recommend method of control.

Surgical neutering removes the negative feedback from the gonadal hormones on the hypothalamic and pituitary production of GnRH, LH and FSH. As a result the hypothalamus continues to produce GnRH and, via the pituitary, LH and FSH stimulates the adrenal glands. This causes hyperplasia and subsequent neoplastic disease. Eventually adrenal gland growth and hormone production becomes non responsive to pituitary control (which is down regulated due to negative feedback). Surgical neutering of ferrets is no longer recommended due to the increased risk of adrenal gland disease.

Medical therapy should be used only in cases that are poor surgical candidates, in cases involving both adrenal glands, or where there are financial constraints. Desorelin implants are now the treatment of choice for this condition as they last for up to two years. These agents act by providing a continuous release of GnRH. For gonadotrophin production pusatile release is required. Thus after an initial stimulation of FSH and LH production, the entire system is down-regulated. This eliminates clinical signs and decreases plasma steroid hormone concentrations. Early cases, with adrenal hyperplasia, may respond to medical therapy alone as the tissue may respond to down regulation of the pituitary. It should be noted that although clinical signs may regress with medical therapy (if an adrenal adenoma or adenocarcinoma is present), these tumours may continue to grow unabated. As a result surgical removal followed by implantation is the authors preferred treatment choice with ongoing ultrasound examination to monitor the surgical sites for regrowth."

Nb he was advising using suprelorin in females aswell as alternative to spaying/jill jab

Re: Ferret castrate help

Mark Rowland — Tue, 22 May 2012 12:42:54 GMT

From the 9.4mg Data Sheet:

Ferrets

The use of the product in pre-pubertal ferrets has not been investigated. It is therefore recommended that ferrets should be allowed to reach puberty before treatment with the product is initiated.

Treatment in ferrets should be initiated at the beginning of the breeding season.

The treated hobs may remain infertile up to four years. The product should therefore be used prudently in hobs intended for future reproduction.

The safety after repeated implantations with Suprelorin in ferrets has not been investigated.

So the 9.4 has a license for s/c implant in ferrets. You may need to discuss costs as two imlpants cost us about £135. Then there is the anaesthesia required to place the implant (recommended by Virbac). I put in the bold bit as you may need to mention this to the owner.

If the hobs are kept with Jills then I would continue to monitor closely as the stated period of effect is variable so there may be the chance of unwanted pregnancies.

Or you could just open castrate like a cat. The 1 in 200 that may develop HAC could be treated with ... Guess what?

Hope this helps.

Re: Ferret castrate help

Utlendigur — Tue, 22 May 2012 11:45:13 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]I autoligate like a cat.[/quote]

You're a braver man than I, Gunga Din! Do you just pull 'em out or tear between 2 sets of artery clamps?

[/quote]

I thought Mark meant either knotting the vas deferens and blood vessels together or tying the whole lot into one knot rather than just pulling/tearing.

Re: Ferret castrate help

Niall Taylor — Tue, 22 May 2012 10:51:14 GMT

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]I autoligate like a cat.[/quote]

You're a braver man than I, Gunga Din! Do you just pull 'em out or tear between 2 sets of artery clamps?

[quote user="Mark Holmes"]Saves on gut.[/quote]

Tightwad!

Niall

Re: Ferret castrate help

Mark Holmes — Tue, 22 May 2012 10:07:08 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]If you're going to go for the castrate the best and simplest method is scrotal. Like a cat, incise over the scrotum, one incision either side, remove the testes, ligate with no 3 or 4 cat gut and leave the incisions open.[/quote]

I autoligate like a cat. Saves on gut.

Re: Ferret castrate help

Oli_J — Tue, 22 May 2012 08:24:09 GMT

Thank you for your help and advice. :)

Re: Ferret castrate help

Oli_J — Tue, 22 May 2012 08:23:24 GMT

From what I have read the improvement in smell is the same with suprelorin vs castration but they will still have some odour unless anal glands are removed.

Re: Ferret castrate help

Niall Taylor — Tue, 22 May 2012 06:53:46 GMT

[quote user="Oli_J"]Hi all,

I have just seen that I have a ferret booked in for a castrate on Wednesday... Which is the best technique, scrotal vs prescrotal?[/quote]

If you're going to go for the castrate the best and simplest method is scrotal. Like a cat, incise over the scrotum, one incision either side, remove the testes, ligate with no 3 or 4 cat gut and leave the incisions open.

Niall

Re: Ferret castrate help

Mark Rowland — Mon, 21 May 2012 23:04:59 GMT

I'm not sure there is data to give you an answer to duration in ferrets, nor is there data on long term safety of this drug in ferrets. Make sure the client knows that this is an off license medication before you place an implant. Goodluck

Re: Ferret castrate help

Oli_J — Mon, 21 May 2012 22:33:48 GMT

How often do you have to place the implant?? I have read that it can last 2 years but this seems like a really long time. Anyone else have experience with this??

Re: Ferret castrate help

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 21 May 2012 22:29:17 GMT

Do they still stink with superlorin?

Re: Ferret castrate help

Utlendigur — Mon, 21 May 2012 22:21:14 GMT

[quote user="Oli_J"]castration is not recommended due to increased incidence of HAC 3-4 years later, is this still the current belief?[/quote]

According to some recent CPD, yes - they recommended suprelorin.