neutering

Re: neutering

David Mills — Thu, 31 May 2012 00:28:26 GMT

[quote user="Simon Neuhoff"]

My wife had an OOH once on a cat heamorrhaging post castration - the vet in question used to just rip them out - no auto-ligation etc. Cat bled to death.

[/quote]

It's a peculiarity of cats that the testicular artery connects directly to the aorta so this can be a treacherous method in cats if it goes wrong, and very hard to see any haemorrhage until the abdo is swimming. It's a definite hangover from LA method of castrating calves and used to be practised on feral farm cats - the old cat in a boot/cat in a towel method of conscious castration, still prevalent down under apparently.

Re: neutering

Sarah Keir — Wed, 30 May 2012 14:45:56 GMT

Ethiopia was fantastic, the new camera worked like a dream, camera operator not so fluid but will come with practice. Will post some piccies after the long weekend.

Re: neutering

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 29 May 2012 21:17:03 GMT

Thanks, I couldn't think of the link! :)

Re: neutering

Niall Taylor — Tue, 29 May 2012 20:49:53 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Keir"] Why DO we do cat spays flank rather than midline ventrally? No-one has ever given me a conclusive answer![/quote]

Habit it seems (and also because it works - though that's not very PC these days):

May, S.,(2012) The flank cat spay: eminence-driven fashions in veterinary surgery Veterinary Record Vol. 170 pp. 460-461

Cheers - how was the holiday btw - any good photos?

Niall

Re: neutering

Simon Neuhoff — Tue, 29 May 2012 17:08:27 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Keir"]

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="patrick murphy"]... why did he recommend this as THE way, and if so good, then why am I not doing it all the time, let alone why do they teach us to OH ?[/quote]

It may come as a surprise to many, but some vets have actually been known to be rather dogmatic about which treatment/method/technique for doing [insert any procedure you like] is the correct one (surprisingly it usually coincides with their way) regardless of the evidence or lack of it either way. Some might say (perish the thought) some vets can even be opinionated about such things.

I know what you're thinking - "vets... opinionated - what is this guy talking about, where does he get these crazy ideas" but you know me, I speak as I find!

Niall

[/quote]

Why DO we do cat spays flank rather than midline ventrally? No-one has ever given me a conclusive answer!

[/quote]

We did that one a while back - boiled down to opinion/habit. Like a lot of other things we do!

Re: neutering

Simon Neuhoff — Tue, 29 May 2012 17:06:43 GMT

[quote user="patrick murphy"]

I know, when locuming I think I knew 9 ways of castrating a cat, and it seemed to me. that no matter which way, the net result i.e. a cat in one hand and a pair of testes in the other, always seemed the same.

[/quote]

My wife had an OOH once on a cat heamorrhaging post castration - the vet in question used to just rip them out - no auto-ligation etc. Cat bled to death.

Re: neutering

Claire Fisher — Mon, 28 May 2012 19:32:12 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

My pet theory was always that the first British small animal vets were large animal practitioners, and so anytime you did a urogenital op you went flank - you'd no more go midline in a dairy cow than you'd take a nap in a minefield. After a good long time, however, people simply didn't change because they were afraid clients would say "how come you do it differently now?" as though coming up with new and modern surgery is inexplicable. There was an article in BVA Record recently, I think - Professor May wrote a little theory on why he thought we do flank spays, too!

[/quote]

I always assumed the same. I've worked with people who spayed bitches and did caesarians flank too and they were predominantly large animal vets.

Re: neutering

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 28 May 2012 17:27:57 GMT

Re: neutering

Sarah Keir — Mon, 28 May 2012 16:33:14 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="patrick murphy"]... why did he recommend this as THE way, and if so good, then why am I not doing it all the time, let alone why do they teach us to OH ?[/quote]

I know what you're thinking - "vets... opinionated - what is this guy talking about, where does he get these crazy ideas" but you know me, I speak as I find!

Niall

[/quote]

Why DO we do cat spays flank rather than midline ventrally? No-one has ever given me a conclusive answer!

Re: neutering

David Mills — Fri, 25 May 2012 15:09:52 GMT

He also employs a 'herbal vet'.

Re: neutering

David Mills — Fri, 25 May 2012 00:00:14 GMT

This Prentis guy also highly recommended RMB diet in one of his first columns.

He's also sailed pretty close to the professional ethics wind when replying to the questions 'My vet says x, what do you think?'

I'm unsure how many people read it tbh- last time I saw it, it was tucked away in the Home section about 3 pages before the back - quite a hunt. OP says it's now moved to Style - mind boggles.

All in all, it's simply a promotional thing for him; anyone egotistical enough to write a column such as that I think deserves all the suspicion of self-aggrandisement as opposed to positive veterinary profession PR as he gets. Funny how the column's inception coincided with Hyde Park Vets teaming up with Davies to offer 'referrals in the city' - once a week, where animals are usually taken back to main Davies site anyway - peculiar decision as London is not exactly under-resourced with top quality referral centres both inside and out...

Re: neutering

patrick murphy — Thu, 24 May 2012 13:22:29 GMT

thanks for great articles, sounds like we should?

Re: neutering

patrick murphy — Thu, 24 May 2012 13:13:26 GMT

Re: neutering

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 22 May 2012 17:07:31 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Vets? Opinionated?[/quote] Moi, a self opinionated, intolerant, impatient, selfish, arrogant, narcissistic control freak? Perish the thought.

Re: neutering

Rob Loxley — Tue, 22 May 2012 16:51:49 GMT

JAVMA paper (http://www.intermountainvet.com/news/downloads/20004.pdf) presents a fairly balance, scientific discussion of the matter.

ACVS review of the matter similar, also online (http://igitur-archive.library.uu.nl/vet/2007-0302-205315/Goethem%20van,%20Schaefer-Okkens,%20Kirpensteijn%3BMaking%20a%20rational%20choice%20between%20ovariectomy%20and%20ovariohysterectomy%20in%20the%20dog%20a%20discussion%20of%20the%20benefits%20of%20either%20technique.pdf)

Re: neutering

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 22 May 2012 13:50:56 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="patrick murphy"]... why did he recommend this as THE way, and if so good, then why am I not doing it all the time, let alone why do they teach us to OH ?[/quote]

I know what you're thinking - "vets... opinionated - what is this guy talking about, where does he get these crazy ideas" but you know me, I speak as I find!

Niall

[/quote]

Vets? Opinionated?

Never!

Re: neutering

Utlendigur — Tue, 22 May 2012 12:59:45 GMT

[quote user="patrick murphy"]I can see that it would be a whole lot quicker and less traumatic (great in bunnies) [/quote]

Would there still be a risk of uterine neoplasia though? Is is hormonally driven or independent?

Re: neutering

Niall Taylor — Tue, 22 May 2012 12:45:37 GMT

[quote user="patrick murphy"]... why did he recommend this as THE way, and if so good, then why am I not doing it all the time, let alone why do they teach us to OH ?[/quote]

I know what you're thinking - "vets... opinionated - what is this guy talking about, where does he get these crazy ideas" but you know me, I speak as I find!

Niall

Re: neutering

Niall Taylor — Tue, 22 May 2012 12:36:49 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Is there a link available to the article? I'd be interested to read it.[/quote]

It's hidden behind a paywall.

Niall

Re: neutering

patrick murphy — Tue, 22 May 2012 12:25:15 GMT

sorry, but I am not clever enough to do link stuff, but it was in the Style colour supplement on May 13.

I am still confused, I can see that it would be a whole lot quicker and less traumatic (great in bunnies) but why did he recommend this as THE way, and if so good, then why am I not doing it all the time, let alone why do they teach us to OH ?

Re: neutering

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 21 May 2012 10:39:19 GMT

Is there a link available to the article? I'd be interested to read it.

Re: neutering

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 21 May 2012 09:15:22 GMT

I also read this (rather it was brought to my attention by Mrs A) and made comments to the effect of 'dodgy could cause stump pyo' but having read the above I may revise my opinion. What struck me as more relevant was though: a vet writing a column in a national publication advocating a technique as though it was the correct method rather than just his opinion and thus denigrated the technique of full hysterectomy than most of us still use. You can imagine the furore if Mrs Smith had her bitch spayed by hysterectomy and she suffered complications then her friend pointed out the article in the Sunday Times.

Re: neutering

Niall Taylor — Sun, 20 May 2012 21:29:02 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Stump pyometra, as I understood, was caused by ovarian remnants; not by bits of the stump... it was poor surgical technique and not the stump itself causing problems.[/quote]

This ^

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"] Basically though i would recommend do what you are comfortable with.[/quote]

... and this.

Niall

Re: neutering

Mark Hedberg — Sat, 19 May 2012 19:51:20 GMT

I did ovariectomies routinely in Saudi Arabia, and I do know it happens fairly routinely in the EU. In the UK I did OVH because my boss preferred it that way; but never had issues either way. Stump pyometra, as I understood, was caused by ovarian remnants; not by bits of the stump. It was because ovarian remnants were often found when the stump was longer that the stump got the blame, when it was poor surgical technique and not the stump itself causing problems.

Re: neutering

Stephen Courtney — Sat, 19 May 2012 17:47:49 GMT

Our laparoscopic spays are ovariectomy only.

My own dog was ovariectomy only though this was before the lap spay became available.

In many parts of the world ovariectomy is the preferred way. It is quicker and there are fewer large blood vessels to deal with, and less traumatised tissue to have to heal. I personally believe it is better because it leaves the cervix and uterine base to help support the bladder. However i believe that all the studies have been done show that ovariectomies have no effect on possible development of USMI in the future.

There is no risk of pyometra unless there is progesterone present, and if you take the ovaries away and don't give progestagens, there is no problem

How do I do spays in practice? I take everything away in the traditional UK manner. i once recommended an ovariectomy only to a St Bernard owner, based on my own experience as a St Bernard owner in the past ( I now have a VERY small dog...!) - she became catastrophically incontinent within days of the spay, and although she lived to 12 years old it was only with the aid of stilboestrol ( it was a while back...) that she could be kept dry.

For the St Bernard ovariectomy case i was involved with my boss asked me to check with the VDS before the op, and the consultant advised that they would have no problem defending an ovariectomy-only spay if there were future issues, as it is a recognised and accepted procedure, albeit less common on the UK than in other countries.

Basically though i would recommend do what you are comfortable with.