limb amputation in cattle?

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

dr narendra chouhan — Sat, 26 May 2012 16:34:10 GMT

[quote user="piyak"]

Hello All,

Would be very grateful for your views on limb amputations in cattle - I have recently returned to India after 6.5 years of practicing as a small animal vet in the UK, and am currently training small animal vets in basic surgical procedures at a animal shelter for animals small and large.

Cows are regarded as sacred here, they are commonly involved in RTAs or other traumatic injuries, and vets seem keen to amputate damaged fore and hind limbs (fractures/complete loss of hoof and /or foot/severe trauma). Euthanasia is reserved for downer cows, and even then, both vets and owners tend to wait til the very last minute. I have never seen this done in the UK, and don't have enough cattle experience to comment, but the results of the surgeries are not pretty (lots of wound infections, downer cows post-op, deaths, non-healing wounds). The surviving amputees are penned outdoors in the shelter for the rest of their lives, and many seem to struggle to move around.

The shelter also has about 25 calves with severe limb deformities, many of whom are poorly mobile - these will stay penned as well. All animals are fed and cared for otherwise.

From what I've seen, the ethics are dubious - any thoughts? If amputation is a good option for cattle, would be very grateful for a good surgical procedure. If it's a bad option, please list reasons, and any articles on the ethics of this would be appreciated - I will show these to the vets involved. Any of the above can be emailed to me at piya.kakar@gmail.com.

Many thanks.

Piya

[/quote]

hi piya this is dr narendra chouhan from indore m.p. im working as a vet surgeon in indore. ur worries r right. but what u see in india is more because of poor tech, employed here during surgery.

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 21 May 2012 08:48:58 GMT

One of the charities I support on a monthly basis is the Brooke Hospital for Animals-and I know that in many parts of India there are very few veterinary surgeons-the Brooke are training veterinary assistants so at least the horses and donkeys get some sort of informed treatment-they don't however do cows

Wynne

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 20 May 2012 16:03:57 GMT

Could it not be that veterinary training in India is entirely appropriate and proper for the requirements of India?

I don't know, but I am very interested.

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Lorna McHardy — Sun, 20 May 2012 15:50:40 GMT

[quote user="piyak"]

Dear All,

It has come to my attention that my personal rant about veterinary affairs in India portrays Indian vets in an awful light - this was not my intention, and I apologise for any hurt feelings. I am struggling with ethical and cultural differences, and should not have used a public forum to voice this. A VetSurgeon member suggested that my post may damage the reputation of Indian vets in the UK - I hope this is not the case, and I hope they'll be judged on their skills and attitude, instead of my miserable rant.

Sorry!

[/quote]

I didn't read it like that at all. You were speaking of cultural contexts, not personal competencies. I think that's a perfectly reasonable thing to discuss on a public forum.

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

piyak — Sun, 20 May 2012 12:36:54 GMT

Dear All,

Sorry!

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Martin Atkinson — Fri, 18 May 2012 09:23:11 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I'll set my (young) Tina Turner look-alike nurse on you - ha[/quote]

Simply the best!

Niall

[/quote] I was thinking more; 'We don't need another hero'!

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 18 May 2012 08:11:58 GMT

Julian: you said proving themselves wrong. You can't then decide afterwards what aspects you accept. ;) ok, ok, i'm done too ;)

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Julian Earl — Thu, 17 May 2012 22:37:09 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

when did religion ever try and prove itself wrong? In other words, science is merely presumed to be right ("believed to be right" if you prefer) only until it is proven wrong.

[/quote]

The Reformation, the Counter-Reformation, the Crusades (technically they were trying to prove each other wrong, not themselves), the Sunni/Shia split, the Roman Catholic Great Schism, The Council of Trent, The Council of Nicaea et al.

Both science and religion presume themselves right until proved wrong. I cheerfully concede that science sometimes tries harder than religion to 'test their faith'.

And how's that global warming computer modeling going? Lovely barbecue spring we've been having! (What was that little news story about scientists falsifying global warming data?)

I cheerfully admit that science underpins our society and works well to solve our problems. But let's not get complacent - remember, Aristotle and Galen were unchallenged for over a thousand years! Was that science or religion?

[/quote]

Brief so as not to derail further:

First point - those all revolve around different versions of the same, errrm, theory, i.e. a supreme being. None try and deconstruct their belief.

Second - don't get climate change mixed up with local weather.

End of message.

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Niall Taylor — Thu, 17 May 2012 15:52:25 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I'll set my (young) Tina Turner look-alike nurse on you - ha[/quote]

Simply the best!

Niall

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 17 May 2012 10:32:34 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]Unbelievabe about the raping infants to cure STD's thing - I'm resisting the urge to further derail the thread into non-scientific thinking and the evils of "alternative" medicine [/quote] Resist the urge Mel, its already been derailed enough, or I'll set my (young) Tina Turner look-alike nurse on you - ha.

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Niall Taylor — Thu, 17 May 2012 10:23:54 GMT

[quote user="piyak"][quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="piyak"]I've suggested it, but nobody thought it was a good idea - apparently I am a fascist.[/quote]

Sorry, what did you suggest?[/quote]

sorry, i meant to reply to Niall's post - i suggested publicly beheading men who rape infant girls as a cure for venereal disease (a not uncommon occurrence in India, and definitely not supported by Hinduism, just superstition and bad people)[/quote]

You can use the "Quote this post" button to show what you're replying to. Either highlight the bit of the post you want to address then click the button or, if you just click the button without highlighting anything, you get the whole post copied into yours.

Unbelievabe about the raping infants to cure STD's thing - I'm resisting the urge to further derail the thread into non-scientific thinking and the evils of "alternative" medicine

Niall

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 16 May 2012 23:37:24 GMT

There isn't a Sun newspaper in India then...................

Piya, stay in touch. If you come to specific problems you can frame in words, the collective wisdom of this forum is at your disposal.

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

piyak — Wed, 16 May 2012 19:25:53 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="piyak"]I've suggested it, but nobody thought it was a good idea - apparently I am a fascist.[/quote]

Sorry, what did you suggest?

[/quote]

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 16 May 2012 18:46:19 GMT

[quote user="piyak"]I've suggested it, but nobody thought it was a good idea - apparently I am a fascist.[/quote]

Sorry, what did you suggest?

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

piyak — Wed, 16 May 2012 17:37:25 GMT

I've suggested it, but nobody thought it was a good idea - apparently I am a fascist. The newspaper I wrote to returned my letter saying it was unprintable, and that India was a democracy...perhaps that's why the faces of rapists are blocked out in the news, but the name of the victim may be clearly stated!)

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

piyak — Wed, 16 May 2012 17:29:20 GMT

Dear Evelyn,

I studied at the RDSVS, Edinburgh, and have lived in the UK for the last 15 years, so have little idea about veterinary colleges in India, but my recent experience of graduates is not a good one. (I moved back to Delhi 4 months ago).

For starters, most vets become vets because they fail to enter medical or dentistry degrees. There is still hardly any emphasis on pain relief - even my brightest stars think meloxicam is enough post major surgery, if at all, and most vets have never had access to opioids. (am working on a wee campaign here but not enough time or backup here). i can't understand why hygiene and asepsis are ignored so much if the vet schools are that good, there is no requirement for CPD post graduation, and the veterinary community is not policed at all - registration / updating knowledge / practice standards are non-existent. The more forward thinking vets are going abroad for courses, which is great, but they are usually private clinicians who have recognised that S.A. practice is a good money maker. Vets never seem to advocate neutering, despite shelters teeming with unwanted pets, and many offer a 'Pet Dating Service' , for which they charge a fee!

Recent graduates have told me that there is minimal exposure to small animal studies, graduates are expected to do a post-grad course, and few practical skills are taught. My colleagues are have memorised everything they have been taught, but seem more academic than practical - which is why I go to the charity hospital 1 day a week. I feel that most vet schools here should be labelled agricultural or husbandry colleges.

Larger veterinary clinics have a grooming parlour ( over-bathing is extremely popular here and generates plenty of extra income!), and a petshop that sells anything from frontline to johnsons flea powder, and amitraz is labelled ' safe for cats' ....it's another world here. I haven't met graduates from Aizwal yet, but I hope they're better than graduates from 15 odd vet schools that I have recently met!

Yes, vets are keen on government jobs - the typical working week is 9-5, mon-fri, and the pay and pension are better than private clinics, not to mention the job security. But the reality is that most govt. vets work about 3 hours a day, and run a standard priced private clinic elsewhere for the rest of the time. Delhi has several spacious government hospitals, but all most stray dog neutering and rabies vaccination is handled by NGOs / charities, and vets recieve Rs 800 (£10) for neutering + vaccinating + housing dogs for atleast 5 days post op. That's not a lot, even here!

And unfortunately, Indian ingenuity and hard work may be becoming a myth- yes, people work long hours here, but not particularly efficiently - atleast in places that I have worked in. It is deemed acceptable for a client to spend 2-5 hours in the clinic, waiting for procedures to occur, and no one has an appointment system in place!

While I really miss working in the UK, I need to be here...sigh.

p.s. I'm sure there are great vet schools and vets here, I just wish I'd meet them!

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

piyak — Wed, 16 May 2012 16:56:47 GMT

Thank you Malcolm and Micheal, it's great to have some practical suggestions. Please check your private messages, Piya

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Alan Tevendale — Wed, 16 May 2012 15:47:55 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

There's no science in a desire not to hurt animals.

[/quote]

Surely there is at least some science here. After all a happy cow is a healthy cow, is a productive cow. Animals with a lower level of disease/pain/stress are more productive. I don't deny that the majority of the desire not to hurt animals is certainly culturally based but if I was to put on my purely productive/profiteering hat then I would imagine I'd still want happy healthy cows.

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 16 May 2012 15:17:12 GMT

I apologize - shouldn't have waved the red flag!

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 16 May 2012 13:29:22 GMT

I'm with Evelyn Pia wants some constructive help, not arguments about why she has a problem in the first place

Wynne

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 16 May 2012 13:26:38 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

Martin: Just as an experiment, go look at the equations and theories that quantum physics uses to explain "life, the universe, and everything". No, not Hawking's books, the actual material. Do you understand a word of it? (I don't!) Or do you just accept that the origins of the universe means what the scientists say it means? :)

(Me, I'm not a physicist. I get the general idea of what it means but I can't go back and see the actual Big Bang any more than they can!)

So both science and religion require faith in areas.

[/quote]

You've used the wrong smiley Mr Mark "Stirrer" Hedberg! You should have used this one:

There is a HUUUUGE gaping black hole in the premise there...

when did religion ever try and prove itself wrong? In other words, science is merely presumed to be right ("believed to be right" if you prefer) only until it is proven wrong.

[/quote]

Now we've got two parallel threads. Could the religion-bashers please start a new one instead of diverting attention from the point of the original? This is my final word on the diversionary thread:

Where does the compassion, the compassionate nature, the compassionate instinct, we all agree we feel, come from? Not from science, that's for sure. There's no science in a desire not to hurt animals. It comes from your culture, your ethics, and you have acquired those both consciously and unconsciously during your upbringing – mostly nurture, reacting perhaps with a bit of nature. Belief. (Which has been considerably influenced, whether you realise it or not, by religion.......... although that's not my main point. I never suggested that Martin was compassionate because some supernatural being had told him to be).

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 16 May 2012 13:16:42 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

when did religion ever try and prove itself wrong? In other words, science is merely presumed to be right ("believed to be right" if you prefer) only until it is proven wrong.

[/quote]

Both science and religion presume themselves right until proved wrong. I cheerfully concede that science sometimes tries harder than religion to 'test their faith'.

And how's that global warming computer modeling going? Lovely barbecue spring we've been having! (What was that little news story about scientists falsifying global warming data?)

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 16 May 2012 13:06:51 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]

Totally hopeless anecdote here, and in no way an objective contribution to the debate. But:

I have very clear memories, as a child, of visiting my grandparents in South Wales and seeing a cow on the farm next door, on the way down to the river, missing a left hindlimb. It seemed (to a child) quite happy, and I continued to see it for a couple of years or so - we used to make a point of looking for it. Of course, this was in the days of smaller Friesians on high fibre rations, giving more like 3-5,000 litres per day. Different times now, and I wouldn't even copuntenance such a procedure in the beasts we currently deal with.

Having spent a very small amount of time in India, I utterly sympathise with piyak and I only wish I actually had some useful skills to offer; I'm surprised, though, to hear the descriptions of Indian vets' competence, as I'd always been of the opinion that standards were pretty high. With a society underpinned by the principles of ingenuity and hard work, though, I think you should be optimistic about success - as Evelyn would have it, the times, they are a'changin.

[/quote]

Don't stand in the doorway, don't block up the hall......................... Sorry.

Anyway. From my own enormous experience (a whole four weeks) I'd just mention that indeed Indian cows are smaller than what we are used to.

As I understand it (and I would really like to hear from Piya about this) Indian veterinary schools are very good, but the syllabus is concerned overwhelmingly with agriculture (and to a certain extent with wildlife). As a matter of priorities, this seems to me both understandable and wise. The vast majority of Indian veterinary graduates, I am told, go into government service.

I visited Aizawl veterinary college and was quite impressed.

I'm putting a few pictures in the gallery.

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Julian Earl — Wed, 16 May 2012 13:00:46 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]

(Me, I'm not a physicist. I get the general idea of what it means but I can't go back and see the actual Big Bang any more than they can!)

So both science and religion require faith in areas.

[/quote]

You've used the wrong smiley Mr Mark "Stirrer" Hedberg! You should have used this one:

There is a HUUUUGE gaping black hole in the premise there...

when did religion ever try and prove itself wrong? In other words, science is merely presumed to be right ("believed to be right" if you prefer) only until it is proven wrong.

Re: limb amputation in cattle?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 16 May 2012 12:53:06 GMT

(Me, I'm not a physicist. I get the general idea of what it means but I can't go back and see the actual Big Bang any more than they can!)

So both science and religion require faith in areas.