horse vaccination

Re: horse vaccination

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 01 May 2012 11:16:46 GMT

PS toabove The main reason I became disillusioned with mixed practice I would still love to treat the animals-but couldn't stand the kow-towing to owners-I'm not cut out to be a Chinese mandarin

Re: horse vaccination

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 01 May 2012 10:46:52 GMT

I think the problem is that in the equine/farm fields the principle of "customer is always right " has been taken to extremes-so practice owners are scared of saying no-because the practice down the road will say yes Take the Alan Walker case 5 years ago-and a later case involving a well-known veterinary practice and 1 of Nick Skeltons show-jumpers

I think the root problem is that in equine/farm practices there are a few clients who spend a lot of money,rather than a lot who each spend a little, so the economic consequences of politely showing the door to a client who makes an improper request are that much greater

Wynne

Re: horse vaccination

Virginia Campbell — Tue, 01 May 2012 10:33:29 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]I have decided not to vaccinate [/quote]

I was asked to vaccinate a relative's horses to save money. Although I used to do quite a lot of horse work in my mixed practice days (now small animal bar the sheep and cattle on the home farm), I declined. My (non veterinary but business battle hardened) mum always taught me: when you want to do anything, first consider what's the worst that can happen.

In this case, anaphylaxis, or muscle necrosis at injection site with subsequent clostridial infection. Both highly unlikely; both more or less equally likely to happen whether a horse vet, cat vet or vet student administers the vaccine. Both not very nice to have to explain and deal with (or get the horse's usual vet to deal with). I would have been happy to vaccinate her horses if I was an employee of her usual horse vet; but going out after work at my small animal practice and having a horse fall off the end of the needle then trying to deal with the whole situation...uurrggh. Suppose it also depends a bit on the owner, but you can't always know what their reaction would be if it all went pear-shaped.

Re: horse vaccination

Lorna McHardy — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 22:00:35 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"] At the risk of sounding a touch self-righteous, it seems wrong to me to pander to a culture that is more bothered by the paperwork than the effects[/quote]

In the context described, one may have little option.

[/quote]

How so? Owner asks for visit to vaccinate, you visit, animal is unwell, you explain to owner why you will not vaccinate, you remain, if necessary, firm and polite about it. Of course there's an option. Which one you decide to take is, of course, a matter of personal decision.

Re: horse vaccination

John Rimmer — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 20:33:50 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]But would it be as effective?[/quote]

Of course not. If I was giving the vaccine to a horse that wasn't healthy then I would make this clear. On the whole they are more bothered by the paperwork. Not wanting to re-start the course, not wanting to stable the horse until it has re-completed a primary course etc.

(I'm not saying it's a 'good' thing to do, but since I am convinced it is doing no harm I crack on)

[/quote]

Ever heard of something called "ethics"?

Re: horse vaccination

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 19:25:38 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"] At the risk of sounding a touch self-righteous, it seems wrong to me to pander to a culture that is more bothered by the paperwork than the effects[/quote]

In the context described, one may have little option.

Re: horse vaccination

Lorna McHardy — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 18:54:17 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]But would it be as effective?[/quote]

(I'm not saying it's a 'good' thing to do, but since I am convinced it is doing no harm I crack on)

[/quote]

Hm. I don't think I'd be comfortable with that. I'm not totally convinced that giving vaccinations I know won't be as effective as they should be does no harm. At the risk of sounding a touch self-righteous, it seems wrong to me to pander to a culture that is more bothered by the paperwork than the effects of drugs given to the horse. I think, if I thought the animal was ill enough to affect the vaccine, I wouldn't give it no matter what the owner happened to be bothered by.

But then, I'm not a horse vet nor ever likely to be!

Re: horse vaccination

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 18:03:03 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]But would it be as effective?[/quote]

(I'm not saying it's a 'good' thing to do, but since I am convinced it is doing no harm I crack on)

Re: horse vaccination

Lorna McHardy — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 17:38:19 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I do not believe the vaccine would ever do any harm however sick the horse.

[/quote]

But would it be as effective?

Re: horse vaccination

Kate Richardson — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 14:38:07 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Yes, the owner is a vet nurse and the horse was recently examined at a pre-purchase exam (though the horse had already been purchased by that point). The exam was within the last month. The horse is not used for competing.

I have decided not to vaccinate after people's comments here. I have mixed views in that I can remember some equine stuff from vet school and I don't shy away from treating species that aren't cats and dogs (including, recently, a lamb) and she is a colleague.

However, there is another vet here with a bit more equine experience than me so the colleague still gets her cost-price vaccination.

[/quote]

Sounds like a sensible plan. Ultimately you shouldn't do something you don't feel comfortable with, and given this is vet nurse rather than one of your vet surgeon colleagues, I think you have made a sensible decision, and everyone wins!

Re: horse vaccination

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 14:02:46 GMT

Wynne,

I appreciate the data sheet says not to vaccinate unhealthy animals, but I have done so (and I expect pretty much every vet dealing with many horses has). When we have the rules whereby the booster HAS to be done within the year or the course started again. You and I both know that a week to get over a snotty nose wouldn't make a serological difference but it would mean a much greater cost for the owner especially if they had to withdraw the horse from a major competition. I do not believe the vaccine would ever do any harm however sick the horse.

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"] I wouldn't be prepared to collude witha lay person to deprive another veterinary surgeon of rightful earnings[/quote]

They are not anyone's earnings. Clients have free will and can spend their money wherever they want. I quite frequently vaccinate horses that are here on loan, should they get their vet from away to do it?

Re: horse vaccination

An On MRCVS — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:46:12 GMT

However, there is another vet here with a bit more equine experience than me so the colleague still gets her cost-price vaccination.

Re: horse vaccination

Kate Richardson — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:14:11 GMT

I would assume the OP's colleague is a veterinary colleague? I would then assume the reason he/she has asked the OP to vaccinate her horse is because she competes it and therefore can't sign her own documents, and is getting the vaccine at cost price hence why the equine vet, who may have been visiting for another reason didn't give the vaccine then. They may well be fully aware that said colleague will be arranging vaccination herself and probably quite happy with it. I say this because that is exactly what I do with my horse and the practice I use for him were perfectly happy with it. I know enough to examine my own horse and know whether my horse is healthy but as I compete I can't sign the vacination card. I asked one of my small animal colleagues to do the same which they did happily even though they haven't vaccinated a horse in years, as long as I was happy that he was healthy. You could evenjust be present and get your colleague to actually give the injection and you check the vaccine prior, watch it being drawn up and administered- is there any difference between this and getting a student seeing practice to do it? Or don't people let vet students do this now? (years since I was in equine practice). I guess it depends on how well you know your colleague but if we are talking about another vet here they would have to be a pretty nasty to turn the blame on you. If you can't trust one of your colleagues not to do the dirty on you, then there is no hope.

Re: horse vaccination

James Laidlaw — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:57:58 GMT

[quote user="Busybee"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"] I ALWAYS examined any horse being vaccinated[/quote]

How in-depth an examination do you perform? Generally (wrongly or rightly!), I ask for a basic history - any coughing/nasal discharge/reluctance to exercise/lameness/lumps or bumps/eating problems? Then have a feel of the teeth (if horse co-operative) quick look at eyes and ears, palpate down trachea, listen to heart and lungs (have picked up a murmur or two doing this), run hands over the body and legs, check feet if applicable and have a quick look at the rear end.

[/quote]

You've just described pretty much what I would do.

Re: horse vaccination

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:53:58 GMT

Despite what Micheal says-it's in the data sheets not to vaccinate an unhealthy horse-so if you're not confident in clinically examining it on the day of vaccination-you shouldn't vaccinate-end of story I would also be very suspicious of the motives of the friend-avoiding paying a call out fee is the one that comes to mind-and I wouldn't be prepared to collude witha lay person to deprive another veterinary surgeon of rightful earnings-we all ought to have greater loyalty to our own profession to even contemplate it

Wynne

Re: horse vaccination

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:45:08 GMT

[quote user="Busybee"]

[quote user="James Laidlaw"] I ALWAYS examined any horse being vaccinated[/quote]

[/quote]

That's what I used to do at horse vaccinations when I did equine work, not a huge difference to what I do with cats and dogs!

Re: horse vaccination

MeeraM — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 10:32:13 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

This is a silly question (hence posting anonymously) but I'm a small animal vet who has been asked to vaccinate a colleague's horse and I haven't done any equine work since qualifying. The horse has been checked over by an equine vet so I just need to vaccinate it. I think I can remember how but I just wanted to check...

[/quote]

Surely this is a wind-up.

Why would an equine vet check the horse over, but not give it a vaccination at the same time? Unless the horse-owning colleague is an equine vet (who has checked the horse) but obviously can't vaccinate/sign their own documents for competition purposes. In which case, get them to show you how it should be done or they could organise for another colleague to do it. Personally, as a horse-owner, I wouldn't be asking a colleague to vaccinate my horse unless they knew what they were doing :)

Re: horse vaccination

Busybee — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 09:56:50 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"] I ALWAYS examined any horse being vaccinated[/quote]

Re: horse vaccination

James Laidlaw — Mon, 30 Apr 2012 08:29:52 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

An equine vaccination doesn't include a clinical examination. I don't charge for one or perform one. I don't know of anybody who does. Just ask if horse fit and well. Sometimes people want teeth checking/rasping and then they are charged extra. All I am doing is identifying the horse, signing the card and administering the vaccine.

TBH if a horses flu jab is due and there is something else wrong then I have given the vacc to a horse I would not chose to, so as not to have to restart the course.

To the OP - take a good strong handful in the upper part of neck. Insert needle firmly with syringe attached in 1 smooth movement. Draw back to check not in a vein and inject. If you take a good tight handful 95% of horses don't even know there's been a needle.

To the people who think the OP should not do this - please remember that as a MRCVS we have a professional obligation to be able to provide first aid treatment to ANY animal. Being a 'pet vet' is no excuse. What would you do if you came across a horse hit by a car? We are talking about a simple I/M injection here.

[/quote]

Back in the day when I used to do mixed practice in NZ and mixed locums over here in the UK AND a short mixed locum stint in Oz, I ALWAYS examined any horse being vaccinated. It was ALWAYS part of the fee, and I don't get why you wouldn't. The only vaccinations I have done without full clinical examination would be in herds or flocks of cows/sheep/deer, but more often than not these were done by the farmers themselves.

Maybe I'm wrong and things have changed, but isn't the general point to avoid vaccinating an unhealthy animal?

I'd say unless the person examining the horse does this on the same day then you're responsible for making sure it's healthy at the time of vaccination.

Finally - re: obligatory first aid doesn't cover vaccination I think you'll find. Otherwise we would have a tonne of small animal clients demanding vaccinations they can't afford and taking us to the royal college if we don't.

Re: horse vaccination

John Rimmer — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 22:57:48 GMT

Agree entirely with Nikki. Only takes one bad experience to make needle shy.

I prefer to slap a few times with back of hand, then stick needle in, the attach syringe. But.....horse for courses..... Snigger.

Re: horse vaccination

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 22:51:02 GMT

[quote user="Busybee"]I presume you mean a good handful of skin, like a neck twitch?[/quote]

Exactly. I use the same technique when microchipping (except add a nose twitch). Microchipping not for the feint hearted!

Re: horse vaccination

Busybee — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 22:24:01 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]To the OP - take a good strong handful in the upper part of neck. Insert needle firmly with syringe attached in 1 smooth movement. Draw back to check not in a vein and inject. If you take a good tight handful 95% of horses don't even know there's been a needle.[/quote]

I presume you mean a good handful of skin, like a neck twitch? I use this method too and find it does really help. Also think of aiming for a triangle in the neck bordered by the nuchal crest, jugular groove and cranial border of the scapula (Google 'horse vaccination neck' to see images). Then insert needle with good control in case the horse jumps suddenly, draw back slightly to check for blood, then inject quickly and smoothly.

Re: horse vaccination

nikki — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 21:56:36 GMT

i haven't done any farm animal work since qualifying but would still be happy carrying out all the procedures I learnt how to do whilst at uni. Surely as a qualified vet you should know the theory of injecting any animal you encountered whilst at uni even if not done it practically recently. Does the person who asked you to inject their horse know you're not confident in the technique of how to do it? As a horse owner I wouldn't let anyone start waving needles around mine who wasn't 100% sure of what they were doing. With most horses it's one chance to get it in correctly and even the nicest looking horse can take you by surprise in their actions. Knowing how to predict that comes with being with them frequently and learning to read them. Sounds like the owner would be better to get their normal vet to carry out the injection.

Re: horse vaccination

John Rimmer — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 18:24:27 GMT

Anyway, don't see the point in arguing. It's entirely up to the OP. They are technically qualified to carry out the procedure so they can do so based on a couple of lines of advice on an internet forum or they can take the advice of those of us who think that experience with horses is necessary as it's not "just an injection" - it's an injection into half a tonne of horse, and one should be familiar with horses to determine if healthy and showing behaviour likely to lead to human damage.

Re: horse vaccination

John Rimmer — Sun, 29 Apr 2012 18:21:37 GMT

That's the point I was trying to make Wren. Except, actually, it's more important that a vet administering the injection has experience that a lay person as they are responsible for safety during the episode. If the OP injects and the horse kicks the owner, guess who's responsible! And a lot more likely to if you're fiddling about not sure what you're doing! This isn't dreamt up of course - I had a colleague who faced a disciplinary some time ago when this exact scenario happened.