Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

HMC — Wed, 09 May 2012 17:11:02 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Research will prove Thomas Lonsdale right or wrong, same as everyone else - but let's let the science do the talking, not personal attacks.[/quote]

But I find his turns of phrase so annoying....

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Bob Russell — Wed, 09 May 2012 09:15:59 GMT

[quote user="Tom Lonsdale"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Research will show Thomas Lonsdale to be partly correct and partly incorrect.[/quote]

Nature sets the standard and I seek to provide an interpretation. Naturally I can err. However, the modern day vet profession is founded on fallacy, living a lie that junk food somehow provides adequate sustenance and no down side for modified wolves, desert cats and polecats.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]His obvious paranoia about the veterinary profession and food manufacturers just help destroy interest in his otherwise interesting contributions/beliefs.[/quote]

Let's cut to the quick and get to grips with what's to be done. Once you let go of your fears, see the world more clearly, you'll likely join with me condemning a so-called healing profession in amorous embrace with the mass poisoners.

Cheers,

Tom

[/quote]

Sums up my point entirely!

I am being lied to. My patients are being killed by junk food! I need to let go of my fears!

I am almost as cynical about commercial pet foods as RMB. My patients are living longer, more healthy lives with fairly standard diets. Nutrition does not frighten me, bores me a bit and I am not overly impressed with sales tactics of pet food companies.

Your attitude strikes me as self-serving and does little to encourage proper debate about diet! Sadly I believe you are damaging to open RMB/Commercial pet food debate.

The longer I do this job the more of my limitations I realise. Mr Lonsdale is correct, absolutely correct and everyone should be following his advice, absolutely!

Bull!

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Tom Lonsdale — Wed, 09 May 2012 07:28:37 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] The fact of the matter is that there is not enough readily available RMB's to go round the entire pet population of the UK[/quote]

Thank you for your comment. I don't propose an instant overnight solution using existing supply systems. When zoo keepers without bars come to realise their obligations to their modified wolves, cats and polecats they'll likely (and it's the Animal welfare law now) want to do the right thing by their companions. Supply systems, unbeknown to most vets who don't see the quiet revolution, are already being developed.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]The difference between (most of) us and dear Tom is that we live in the real world.[/quote]

After 14 years writing and touring the world seeking to get the good news out, I suffered a setback. The 18 year tenant of my last remaining vet hospital moved out. Left without rental income I was obliged to go back into practice last August. However, true to the creed that a natural diet is the strongest, most gentle, most efficacious medicine at our disposal we set up a room with 8 deep freezers.

These are stocked with chicken frames, ox hearts, liver, gullets and tripe, lamb heads and lamb plucks, quail frames, rabbits skin on and skin off, rabbit heads and feral pigs.

I don't suggest that this is particulary profitable, but it sure is professionally gratifying to see the animals bounding with health and vitality and their owners beaming with pride.

Go on, give it a try, make it part of your real world. You may just find out how wrong you were. (You can then post your mea culpas here for the benefit of all.)

All the best,

Tom

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Tom Lonsdale — Wed, 09 May 2012 07:14:13 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Research will show Thomas Lonsdale to be partly correct and partly incorrect.[/quote]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]His obvious paranoia about the veterinary profession and food manufacturers just help destroy interest in his otherwise interesting contributions/beliefs.[/quote]

Cheers,

Tom

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Tom Lonsdale — Wed, 09 May 2012 07:04:55 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Just a futile word:[/quote]

G'day Mr Hedberg,

Thanks for the word, futile or not. It's over twenty years since we stumbled on the obvious truth that nature got it right, and that it don't run on linear, reductionist, unidirectional, cause and effect lines so beloved of the so-called medical sciences.

Misdirected Science is dissected in Raw Meaty Bones, Chapter 10. The book's in the files: http://www.vetsurgeon.org/members/Lonsdale/files/default.aspx

Yes, this stuff is about reform, reform so big it amounts to a revolution in thought and action.

If people seek to unlearn the dogma they can then begin to see with greater clarity. http://www.rawmeatybones.com/pdf/Rawinstincts%20Ia.pdf

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Research proved them right. Research will prove Thomas Lonsdale right or wrong[/quote]

No need, indeed actually negligent, to wait for junk pet food funded institutes and vet schools to do the research. It's easy peasy to do your own trials. Feed your own dogs, cats and ferrets a natural diet from three weeks of age. Take old animals with three feet in the grave, pull the bad teeth, change the diet and stand back in awe as the near dead and dying become like kittens and puppies again.

All the best,

Tom

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Kate Richardson — Tue, 08 May 2012 20:11:13 GMT

[quote user="Tom Lonsdale"]

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]So what do you say about the cat I saw yesterday on a raw food diet who had a struvite urethral obstruction?[/quote]

My sympathies are with the cat.

[/quote]

Err and so are mine.

[quote user="Tom Lonsdale"] Dental treatment and fully carcass/raw meaty bones diet are the number one way of preventing and treating struvite obstruction. [/quote]

Except it obviously didn't. By the way, this cat has perfect teeth.

[quote user="Tom Lonsdale"]Sadly most vets have neither training nor experience in feeding a natural diet.[/quote]

Diet change nothing to do with me. Owners changed off their own back 6 months ago, probably after reading stuff on the internet. Prior to this cat had urine samples looked at for other reasons and no struvite ever identified.

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 08 May 2012 18:07:09 GMT

At risk of feeding the troll it has to be said that Mr Lonsdale is totally correct: cats and dogs did not evolve to eat Hills any more then we evolved to eat M&S ready meals. The fact of the matter is that there is not enough readily available RMB's to go round the entire pet population of the UK any more than is likely that I will go out foraging for shoots and berries and hunting a woolly mammoth. The difference between (most of) us and dear Tom is that we live in the real world. I've said this before so I won't repeat myself again.

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Bob Russell — Tue, 08 May 2012 17:54:39 GMT

Research will show Thomas Lonsdale to be partly correct and partly incorrect. This is the way of the world. I am sure it will also show that Royal Canin nutritionists are partly correct and partly incorrect!

That is life!

For Mr Lonsdale to consider himself totally correct and Hills totally incorrect is when the bovine waste matter starts to flow! His obvious paranoia about the veterinary profession and food manufacturers just help destroy interest in his otherwise interesting contributions/beliefs.

Personal attacks are inevitable when he attacks everyone else personally!

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 08 May 2012 16:17:34 GMT

Just a futile word:

Ignac Semmelweis was forced out from his Vienna medical school job for insisting on handwashing before delivering babies. (This was pre-germ theory medicine, and he didn't know WHY handwashing reduced maternal mortality.)

Louis Pasteur's germ theory was ridiculed as ridiculous fiction for quite a few years before the medical establishment came around.

Research proved them right. Research will prove Thomas Lonsdale right or wrong, same as everyone else - but let's let the science do the talking, not personal attacks.

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Alet Engelbrecht — Tue, 08 May 2012 15:51:25 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

So what do you say about the cat I saw yesterday on a raw food diet who had a struvite urethral obstruction?

[/quote]

Lonsdale - unpublished, 1992

Need I say more?

I will - what a load of drizzle... Interesting how most of the link contains information about dental disease. Very scientific all the links...

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Tom Lonsdale — Tue, 08 May 2012 13:08:33 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]So what do you say about the cat I saw yesterday on a raw food diet who had a struvite urethral obstruction?[/quote]

My sympathies are with the cat. Dental treatment and fully carcass/raw meaty bones diet are the number one way of preventing and treating struvite obstruction. http://www.rawmeatybones.com/FLUTD.html

Sadly most vets have neither training nor experience in feeding a natural diet. Indeed, when investigated fully, their claims about 'raw food' are mostly found to be a figment.

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 08 May 2012 12:53:10 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

So what do you say about the cat I saw yesterday on a raw food diet who had a struvite urethral obstruction?

[/quote]

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Kate Richardson — Tue, 08 May 2012 12:51:10 GMT

So what do you say about the cat I saw yesterday on a raw food diet who had a struvite urethral obstruction?

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Tom Lonsdale — Tue, 08 May 2012 10:23:23 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]No, kitten food is much higher in protein it contains less carbohydrate than adult foods.[/quote] That's in the fraudulent vet/junk pet food world. In the natural world kitten food is rats, mice, rabbits, lizards, frogs, insects and small birds.

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]This is what I understand from lectures by endocrinologists anyway but if someone with a greater knowledge of me on this subject knows better I stand to be corrected.[/quote] Now who in their right mind would listen to so-called endocrinologists on the junk pet food payroll? The 'creator', nature or whoever has the first and last word on this. Cats are carnivores.

End the widespread cruelty and treat them as such.

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 08 May 2012 09:41:40 GMT

[quote user="John Rimmer"]But kitten food is calories dense, and diabetes in cats is usually type II brought about by obesity... :-/[/quote] No, kitten food is much higher in protein it contains less carbohydrate than adult foods. Cats gain much more of their energy from digestion of protein which is why even the lowest protein cat food contains more protein than high protein dog food. A number of low calorie and diabetic diets which may seem logical to give to obese cats contain less fat but are quite high in carbohydrate which is counter-productive. Not all kitten foods are equal, dry diets contain more carbohydrate than moist and Purina has the highest protein to carbohydrate ratio which is why I advise it. The latest generation diabetic diets may be a bit better but I still remain to be convinced. This is what I understand from lectures by endocrinologists anyway but if someone with a greater knowledge of me on this subject knows better I stand to be corrected.

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

John Rimmer — Sun, 06 May 2012 19:50:16 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Oli_J"]

On the topic of diet for diabetic cats... Does anyone else follow the 7% rule?? i.e the cat should be fed a food which contains less then 7% carbohydrate to achieve optimum glocose control and maximise chance of remission.

[/quote]

I tell my diabetic cat owners to feed them on kitten food, Purina seems to be the best, to achieve the reduction in carbohydrate, but whatever you feed the important thing is to be consistent: same food, same amount, same time every day.

[/quote]

But kitten food is calories dense, and diabetes in cats is usually type II brought about by obesity... :-/

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Peter Graham — Wed, 02 May 2012 18:31:26 GMT

From an endocrinology point of view, both hypo and hyperthyroidism can be causes of higher than usual insulin requirements.

From a lab perspective, Free T4 (only by equilibrium dialysis) might help you rule out hyperthyroidism if you didn't want to wait to re-test. For acromegaly, IGF-1 would be helpful and there is even a test for anti-insulin antibodies (although extremely rare as a cause of insulin resistance in animals treated with human insulin). From how you have described the case so far, I can't say that any of these are probable although if "big-boned" as well as obese, then acromegally may be higher on the list of possibles.

From a clinincal perspective, I can see why the insulin dose and the blood glucose results are concerning you but for the size of cat, the dose doesn't seem outrageous yet and the clinical status of the animal counts for a tremendous amount. If well and happy and not PU/PD, then there are great positives going on in this case.

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 02 May 2012 13:31:52 GMT

[quote user="ilanit"]according to this article http://www.2ndchance.info/diabetescat-insulinresistance.pdf thyroid hormones cause impaired insulin receptor binding and therefore insulin resistance. Not sure how much in practice it interferes with glucose control, but something to keep in the back of your mind I think.[/quote] Hmm... interesting, in the back of my mind I always thought the association with insulin resistance and thyroid hormones was lack of them as in diabetic dogs with concurrent hypothyroidism although I never had one. It is now all obvious to me and hypothyroidism is more likely to cause a persistent hypoglycaemia. Will have to have a re-think now when I see one..

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

ilanit — Wed, 02 May 2012 11:44:53 GMT

Latest (minor) frustration is that the supplier is out of IU40 syringes and I have to work with IU100 syringes!! Obviously not the end of the world, because I can convert, but it's just unnecessary confusing for the owner!! Cannot believe how they can import caninsulin and sell IU100 syringes with them. These are the frustrations of being marooned on a small Island!!! On the bright side, it's nice and sunny

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

ilanit — Wed, 02 May 2012 11:39:42 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]However I'm struggling to see how hyperthyroidism would cause insulin resistance in your case ilanit more an increased demand for glucose which would make it more prone to hypoglycaemia. [/quote]

Not exactly sure how.

according to this article http://www.2ndchance.info/diabetescat-insulinresistance.pdf thyroid hormones cause impaired insulin receptor binding and therefore insulin resistance. Not sure how much in practice it interferes with glucose control, but something to keep in the back of your mind I think.

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Lorna McHardy — Wed, 02 May 2012 11:06:31 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

We had two cats until recently and both of them would stubbornly refuse to eat virtually any food after a few days up to a week and would leave the food to dry out and go off. Offering the same food later would elicit the same few licks at the food and then repeated refusal. Eventually you do offer a different food which they would then eat for a time until the same process repeated. You could argue that they were training us, but that means that they had the forethought to know that after a few days we would relent and they would eat. I have never had dogs do this.

[/quote]

Mine did when she was younger... only she also added a nice twist - once she'd run up excitedly (fooooood!!!!!) had a few licks, or even just a sniff of the food she didn't want, she'd put her tail between her legs and droop her head and her ears and creep to her bed, dropping into it with a deep and pitiful sigh. As you can imagine, I didn't last long against those tactics. Pedigree it was.

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Kate Richardson — Wed, 02 May 2012 10:04:46 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] confirmed DM on fructosamine and hyperglycaemia, they gave it 7iu Caninsulin as starting dose for a 2.5kg cat!!! and unsurprisingly it went hypo. [/quote]

OMG!!!!!

Absolutely can get get T4 lowered due to concurrent illness, and I too have seen hyperthyroid cats with T4 well within the normal range due to concurrent illness, but in my experience these tend to be 'sicker' cats like the one you describe, poor BCS and with obvious concurrent problems etc.

Re hyperthyroidism and insulin resistance, (I am not an endocrinologist), I can see you could get persistent hyperglycaemia which could in theory cause beta cell exhaustion, but I agree that insulin resistance per se seems unlikely.

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 02 May 2012 09:27:54 GMT

I have just inherited a poorly managed DM cat from another practice, it is an old, emaciated specimen, neglected for too long by the owner before presentation at previous vet, confirmed DM on fructosamine and hyperglycaemia, they gave it 7iu Caninsulin as starting dose for a 2.5kg cat!!! and unsurprisingly it went hypo. They managed that alright fortunately but that is why they jumped ship. The bottom line here is this cat has a distinct goitre and its TT4 was 27. This could be a case of euthyroid sick syndrome or a non-functional thyroid tumour but it has no other signs of hyperthyroidism like tachycardia or raised liver enzymes. Added to its woes are that it is hyperkalaemic, uraemic and has a UTI. However I'm struggling to see how hyperthyroidism would cause insulin resistance in your case ilanit more an increased demand for glucose which would make it more prone to hypoglycaemia. Maybe there is someone who is much better endocrinologist could come in here. I would monitor you case ilanit but don't give a therapeutic trial, free T4 is a possibility or the veterinary specific T4 that Idexx now offer.

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

ilanit — Wed, 02 May 2012 08:28:53 GMT

Thanks. No no other signs. Cat as happy as can be (I absolutely love this cat! He even enjoys coming to the clinic to get his cuddles!). I am home, don't remember the exact values. But I remember it was within ref range. But idexx classified between 30-60 in grey zone in old cats and advises retesting. Will do just that! Thanks.

Re: Diabetic cat hell! Help!!!

Kate Richardson — Wed, 02 May 2012 08:05:39 GMT

Definite no to medication trial.

Are there any other signs that make you suspicious of hyperthyroidism such as tachycardia, intermittent vomiting or diarrhoea? What is the Idexx range? 30 to me sounds bang in the middle and I wouldn't be too concerned at this stage if he is a happy cat and would concentrate on stabilising the DM. However, I would keep it in the back of my mind, and recheck TT4 in 1-2 months time if you continue to have suspicions.