Help - half chewed tortoise

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

mariette asselbergs — Tue, 20 Mar 2012 12:51:40 GMT

How about cling film to stop the bleeding?

Mariette

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Mark Rowland — Tue, 20 Mar 2012 11:42:16 GMT

Thank-you Hannah

But there's something even better coming out soon, Im so excited about it it's making my mouth dry.

Watch this space....

btw is that tortoise bloody eating or not, I really want to know now

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

HMC — Tue, 20 Mar 2012 10:52:37 GMT

Hi Mark,

I second the compliment on your article .

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Mark Rowland — Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:29:50 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]GM, bet you 10p its eating in 3 days. [/quote]

Any chance of an update? Need to settle a bet...

[/quote]

Ha Ha I want to know too

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 19 Mar 2012 18:35:18 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]GM, bet you 10p its eating in 3 days. [/quote]

Any chance of an update? Need to settle a bet...

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 18:50:01 GMT

I have always found vetrap works well - bandage well to keep the dressing on then cut holes for the legs/head etc as required.

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 16:00:54 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Can you still get Kaltostat? This worked well for us in the past!

[/quote]

Yes.

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Bob Russell — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 15:24:55 GMT

Can you still get Kaltostat? This worked well for us in the past!

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Mark Rowland — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 15:23:02 GMT

Ive used celox with good success. (try a local equine practice).

Some compressive bandaging will also help.

Dont cool it down.

Goodluck

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Catherine Williams — Fri, 16 Mar 2012 15:20:06 GMT

Well he's definitely a brighter tortoise now, he's gently moving around, is definitely warmer + we've tube fed him Vetark Critical Care several times and he's keeping it down now. But as he's brighter + doing better we have a new problem in that the shell wound is now actively bleeding, sort of a constant ooze from the whole surface - tried dressing it to apply pressure - difficult as it is directly over the top of his front leg so he tends to knock the dressing with his leg - he has bled through this several times. I've also applied Lysostypt foam to it to no avail. There are no individual vessels to tie off...I'm really not keen on caustic pencil or electrocautery of the shell without being sure it's the right thing to do....seems very uncomfortable, but I'm running out of ideas.

He has bled enough to clot himself to the viv floor several times. My colleague has suggested cooling him down to stop the bleeding but my concern is that will also stop the drugs working, slow his metabolism and mess with any healing function we have.

Any ideas gratefully received

Thanks

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Catherine Williams — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 22:40:22 GMT

Am hoping my more tortoise savvy colleague is in tomorrow, got enough experience to worry about this one but not sure got enough to turn him round.

We've been using warm water baths and now got him in a viv with UV + heat lamp to warm him up and definitely more responsive & active now. Give some fluids sc + some that I think went intracoelomic by back leg. Tried to tube feed some warmed fluids with vetark critical care but unfortunately that prompted him to regurgitate some fairly manky looking lettucey type material....didn't look like nice dark green weeds...not sure how long that had been in there. He has passed some watery urine. Xray does show some grit in the gut so not quite sure what he has been up to. Keeping up the tlc tonight + will reassess tom & case conference with my colleagues. Haven't offered any food tonight because I want to get him warm and his system active before trying to shove food into him.

Thanks for the advice

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:41:34 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]Over 70% of my speys eat within 3 days and most of them have shocking livers visually and on biopsy. Also Ive had some torts which have got so depressed with a tube in place that ive taken them out again. [/quote]

I'm assuming you don't do elective surgery in an animal that hasn't eaten in months though....

To be fair, I also give them 2-3 days myself before even thinking about fitting a tube...it is amazing what heat and supportive care will do. I'm just not convinced a tortoise in this state, which is likely to have had a rubbish diet even when it was eating, will start eating again that quickly. Hope we're kept informed......

I agree that gavage feeding is easy, but maybe not for someone who isn't used to handling torties.....

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Mark Rowland — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:33:54 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]This tortoise could have been wandering around outside for months or even years.....don't you think it could take a bit longer than a couple of days for the appetite to kick in? I find the liver can be a bit ropey after even a fairly short period of anorexia... [/quote]

Sorry, I missed the stray bit but I still think there is no need to rush in with fitting a tube. Most are quire easy to gavage tube and if its not improving after a couple of days there is always the possibility to work it up further. Really in the initial stages, fluids and analgesia are what these guys need the most imo.

Over 70% of my speys eat within 3 days and most of them have shocking livers visually and on biopsy. Also Ive had some torts which have got so depressed with a tube in place that ive taken them out again.

I think stabilisation, pain relief and investigation if there is no significant improvement is how I would go (and this is based on not seeing the tort).

GM, bet you 10p its eating in 3 days.

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:22:08 GMT

Any chance of handing him over to a different local vet who is more used to torties? Or how about contacting the British Chelonia Group or Tortoise Trust to see about them taking it on? If you check out their websites they'll help you identify it anyway, as well as having contact details. If I was local I'd happily find a viv for it with us.....

Assuming it is a testudo sp, it has a Jackson ratio of 0.15. Although this is only a rough guide to the correct size/weight, it does indicate the tortie is likely to be significantly underweight, as you suspected. The shell deformities do indicate previous poor husbandry and if the pyramiding is very severe it can meal spinal and lung issues, so it would be better to get horizontal beam xrays done ideally...it may indicate that all the TLC in the world isn't going to do much good.....

How are you warming the tortoise at the moment?

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Catherine Williams — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:07:54 GMT

He's about 0.75kg, about 17cm front to back of shell, seems very skinny when I palpate around the legs. Checked for a chip or written postcode & can't find any on him. kind worried about the shape he is, very flat with a pronounced ridge of pointy scutes down his midline but the xray suggests bone density isn't too bad. Can't seem to get our system to do horizontal beam rads. He's brighter + moving around but doesn't seem to be able to lift himself up. The shell deficit doesn't look too horrendous though I can't rule out some bony damage, I'm just worried how sick he was before all of this as I can't see how a tortoise wandering in someone else's garden at this time of year is in particularly good shape, I'm concerned being chewed may be the final straw. I want to give him a chance but I don't want him hanging on for days struggling before we admit defeat. He has a slight pink tinge in a line along the edge of most of his ventral scutes + in a little 8x6mm triangle on the scute nearest each back leg....I'm a little concerned this could mean systemic issues but I'm having difficulty identifying species at this stage so I'm not sure re colouration naturally.....I don't see that many tortoises to be able to automatically identify.

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 21:00:16 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]Gavage feeding until eating normally (should only take a couple of days with the correct analgesia).[/quote]

This tortoise could have been wandering around outside for months or even years.....don't you think it could take a bit longer than a couple of days for the appetite to kick in? I find the liver can be a bit ropey after even a fairly short period of anorexia...

I'd agree that they can recover very quickly after acute injury - I had one brought in that had been really badly mauled by a staffie, holes and fractures everywhere...and it never stopped eating! Amazing little critters!

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Mark Rowland — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:51:29 GMT

Hello, sorry to come in late, some good advice so far.

Warmth(26-30C), Pain relief (buprenorphine 0.1mg/kg bid, Meloxicam 0.2mg/kg sid), Fluids 20-25mls/kg/day (Coelomic or epicoelomic should be fine if he tortoise is bright enough), careful wound care (cleaning, F10 barrier cream) and antibiosis should get you there if there is no evidence of penetration into the coelomic cavity.

Gavage feeding until eating normally (should only take a couple of days with the correct analgesia).

Post some pics if you can.

Sounds like youve done well so far so goodluck

BTW the reason Ive not been online today is because i've been sorting the final aspects of something REALLY cool for you guys.

To JHL, glad you liked the article, thank-you

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 20:42:47 GMT

How big/old is the tortoise? Did you check left inguinal region for a microchip?

Sounds like a lot of care will be needed (likely to be a few months) so make sure you get a good vivarium available for the long term ASAP. Most shell defects, assuming no # and they don't go through to the coelom, can be cleaned/debrided with wet-to-dry dressings and will heal remarkably well given enough time. I like Flamazine (sulphasalazine) cream for them. Your radiographs should show any osteomyelitis or # - if these are clear you shouldn't need systemic antibiosis really. However, I would routinely do horizontal beam radiography though to check for lung lesions and also a full blood profile.

As long as tests don't show any major issues the rest depends on whether tortie starts to eat.......if not, I'd put in an oesophagostomy tube. Oxbow fine grind goes through them very well.

Good luck!

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Catherine Williams — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:46:49 GMT

Done the baytril, warming her as quickly as possible in water bath without producing turtle soup, now starting to move around but still too cold to register on our digital thermometers...damn health & safety that got rid of the mercury ones! Managed to get some fluids on board. Off to xray her as suspect got major metabolic bone disease and that may affect how aggressively I want to pursue this. Seems a little dyspnoeic - pumping the front legs a bit, but not sure if this is resp disease or stress/pain etc, hoping an xray may tell me more + poss see if I can find a description of how to put an io catheter into the plastron.

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:34:53 GMT

I'm the wrong Mark, but warm up asap to 22-26 celsius. Got a vivarium? Get him in there. Water bath, enrofloxacin 20mg/kg sid, then whatever mark rowland says, do it. :)

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

KathW — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:44:25 GMT

http://www.vetsonline.com/Recherche/Resultats/d0c1fcfab8c0475121a04c4216f0c11f/ There is an archive and looks like it's here. But I dont have a log in - hope you can instantly register then read it.

Edit - you must have posted that as I was looking it up Bob!

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Bob Russell — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:41:50 GMT

Pretty sure Vet Times can be viewed on-line. I think you have to register but it may save a bit of time getting to the article!

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

Catherine Williams — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:29:48 GMT

Knew I'd seen an article about it recently but unfortunately that is sat at home in my things to read pile...as are my notes from a recent exotics emergency course, can remember the recommended drugs and some of the fluid stuff but he's so cold that I'm not sure oral or sc fluids will help and I recall being warned against intracoelomic fluids due to lack of diaphragm. May have to brave the intraosseous route:-{

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

james herriot lied — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 17:09:44 GMT

Can I suggest Mark Rowland's excellent article in the Vet Times a couple of weeks back - some good advice re admin of fluids etc - although I suspect the big man himself will be along shortly.

Not uncommon these attacks, unfortunately.

Re: Help - half chewed tortoise

John Rimmer — Thu, 15 Mar 2012 16:54:31 GMT

Oh dear. Don't have any suggestions but good luck. Poor bugger.