guinea pig pyo

Re: guinea pig pyo

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 06 Mar 2012 09:22:31 GMT

[quote user="Charlotte Marshall"]

Done a couple of GP speys few years back but found it a bit stressful. I am not keen on rabbit speys but do not find them too bad however I was rather horrified when I subsequently had to do a cystotomy on a speyed rabbit and saw the extent of adhesions it had formed!

[/quote]

I spayed a guinea pig with ovarian cysts last year. I had to get someone to come and stick a needle in the cysts and drain them so I could get them out of the abdomen, but other than that the surgery was quite straightforward, and the guinea pig recovered well.

Re: guinea pig pyo

Cat Henstridge — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 19:00:24 GMT

[quote user="Chris Geddes"]Suprelorin is apparently not ideal in elephants,[/quote]

One of my friends is a zoo vet and uses it in the female giraffes!

Re: guinea pig pyo

Lorna McHardy — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:41:14 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

I have found GP spays similar or easier than rabbits (based on very small sample!)! I did a hamster spay once and it was really easy!

What a crazy world we live in - all were done more out of interest than an expectation of survival so were really quite low stress procedures. I may have been lucky.

Much better than a horrible 'routine' rabbit spay where the owners are expecting the patient back in one piece! So far all mine have got home safely but my blood pressure and language usually reach explosion point! Hate them!

[/quote]

Really? I've done one GP spay which I found incredibly difficult and have since avoided doing again... whereas rabbit spays are no problem whatsoever and I'm happy to do them routinely. Just be careful not to touch anything other than the bits getting removed.

Re: guinea pig pyo

Charlotte Marshall — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 17:00:06 GMT

Re: guinea pig pyo

Bob Russell — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 16:46:45 GMT

I have found GP spays similar or easier than rabbits (based on very small sample!)! I did a hamster spay once and it was really easy!

What a crazy world we live in - all were done more out of interest than an expectation of survival so were really quite low stress procedures. I may have been lucky.

Re: guinea pig pyo

Chris Geddes — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 15:02:39 GMT

Oh dear. Much as some people moan about the cascade, it is indeed far preferable than a system whereby all off-license use is banned!

Your English is difficult to distinguish from a non-native speaker, don't worry!

Thank you for your good wishes

Chris

Re: guinea pig pyo

Dagmar Steele — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 13:53:04 GMT

[quote user="Chris Geddes"]

Hi Dagmar,

We are of course allowed to do this - i.e. share our knowledge of off-license use specifically when a practising vet requests it from a company vet. Please note the subtle difference - i did not "tell other vets that it's safe to use in guinea pigs" as you suggested! - I made it clear that there was only one paper that I was aware of, that I had no clinical experience, that I thought OHE was still the gold standard (though Mark seemed to disagree - happy to be corrected!)....I also suggested the OP wait for more experienced exotic vets to come along, which fortunately they did!

Saying all of this, we DO look out for where products have been used successfully, fund trials, and where possible, obtain a license. Indeed, we have recently obtained a license for Suprelorin 9.4mg in ferrets - the SPC should be up on the VMD website shortly, followed by the data sheet on the NOAH compendium website. In the meantime, as ever, for further information please speak to one our technical department. Further studies on other uses are ongoing all the time at headquarters, but one step at a time!

So to conclude, if it's a common off-license use and we feel it is safe, then no, it's not too much to ask for us to commission studies and obtain licenses, but give us a chance! Incidentally, it's only when vets tell us what they are doing that are aware of how common an off-license use it to begin with!

Best wishes

Chris

[/quote]

Hi Chris,

fair enough. I know it would be ridiculous to ask for a license for Suprelorin in elephants :-) And I do note the subtle difference (sorry if I made it sound the wrong way, I'm no native speaker!), though I must say it does sound different sometimes when the rep comes to visit you... (depending on rep and company - there are huge differences and Virbac are actually the good ones...)

In Germany we are facing the problem at the moment that politicians are talking about changes in the right to dispense meds for vets. Apart from the possibility that we might lose it altogether it may involve the ban of any off-license use, which would have a devastating effect on the treatment of all minor species, exotics as well as small ruminants. Hence I'm even more concerned about this issue than I used to be, but it always upset me a bit. Very difficult to draw the line, where is it sensible to expect a company to put money and effort in licensing instead of "using" the practicioners for field trials and where would it be completely ridiculous (elephants)?

Thank you for the discussion and your support and get better soon!

DAgmar

Re: guinea pig pyo

Chris Geddes — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 11:10:05 GMT

Hi Dagmar,

No offence taken! I take your point, but the problem is that I am aware of probably close to 100 off-license uses of Alizin and Suprelorin alone, and licensing is indeed time-consuming, costly, and difficult. It would simply not be possible or even desirable for us to obtain a license for every use - for example, Suprelorin is apparently not ideal in elephants, and even if it were, the number of uses would probably be tiny hence really not worth obtaining a license! I must stress that we do not, and indeed are not allowed to, actively promote the use of a product for off-license use. However, I feel that it is only fair that if a vet wants to use our product off license, for example the Alizin/GP scenario, we should keep up to date of what is going on in the literature and what other people have done in the field so we can provide the best advice possible. We are of course allowed to do this - i.e. share our knowledge of off-license use specifically when a practising vet requests it from a company vet. Please note the subtle difference - i did not "tell other vets that it's safe to use in guinea pigs" as you suggested! - I made it clear that there was only one paper that I was aware of, that I had no clinical experience, that I thought OHE was still the gold standard (though Mark seemed to disagree - happy to be corrected!)....I also suggested the OP wait for more experienced exotic vets to come along, which fortunately they did!

Best wishes

Chris

Re: guinea pig pyo

Dagmar Steele — Mon, 05 Mar 2012 07:55:00 GMT

[quote user="Chris Geddes"]

Thanks Mark. It's always useful to know what people are dong re off-license use of our products so we can use their experience to help guide other vets. I even managed to find someone with experience of Suprelorin in elephants last week...although admittedly, one one!

Chris

[/quote]

Chris, I don't mean to be offensive (certainly no offense meant to you, who is always very helpful), but this is something that has been nagging on me for a couple of years. It seems to me the industry develops a product, gets it licensed for one or two species and one or two indications and then leans back and watches the vets out there doing some trials. It's me sticking my head above the carpet if I use it in guinea pigs off-license, even if I have the o. sign a form. If all goes well the industry members tell other vets that it's safe to use in guinea pigs - great. What I'd really like to see is the manufacturers having products licensed for more species and indications (and yes, I know this is expensive! But I just read how much more money Bayer made for example in 2011...) and not me doing the try and error thing all the time. Is this asking too much from the companies?

Re: guinea pig pyo

Chris Geddes — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 21:43:19 GMT

Chris

Re: guinea pig pyo

Lorna McHardy — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 20:51:32 GMT

Thanks, everyone! I love this site :0))

Marie... I doubt the owners' finances will stretch to quite that level of care, but I'll certainly suggest the ventral approach as an option to my colleagues... I'll also give them the Alizin information. I'll give them a call next time I'm on (in two weeks) to find out what happened.

Re: guinea pig pyo

Mark Rowland — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 20:44:15 GMT

I would opt for the Alizin myself (Ive got a chinchilla pyo on at the moment that Im treating with the drug) over surgery as the GP is bright and any surgery is potentially life threatening and prone to complications such as adhesion formation.

First I would confirm the pyo with some rads/ultrasound and do some bloods to check there is nothing else complicating.

Goodluck

Re: guinea pig pyo

Dagmar Steele — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 20:30:26 GMT

Chris, it was pretty close to death anyway. As usual the owners only realized something was wrong when it could barely walk - they had been wondering about the terrible smell for a few weeks

Re: guinea pig pyo

Chris Geddes — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 20:22:38 GMT

In the reference they gave Baytril as the antimicrobial, so you needn't feel bad there Lorna! If you do hear what happens from the normal vet, would be interested to hear! Sorry, not aware of any reference in hamsters Dagmar - sorry to hear you didn't have success :(

Chris

Re: guinea pig pyo

Marie Kubiak — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 20:20:48 GMT

I would suggest analgesia, antibiotic cover (metronidazole plus fluoroquinolone is a good starting point while awaiting C&S for ongoing post-op medication), fluids and ovariohysterectomy asap. If the guinea pig is stable and surgery is uncomplicated a ventral approach is straightforward. If there are any concerns with anaesthesia/surgery then doing a hysterectomy alone via a ventral approach speeds surgery in a compromised animal and you can go back in 2wks to do a bilateral flank ovariectomy as a second procedure - this is now recomended as a two-step procedure in GPs by some vets.

I haven't used Alizin in GPs so would be cautious to try it and would prefer to opt for surgery in a guinea pig that sounds stable at present.

Marie

Re: guinea pig pyo

Chris Geddes — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 20:19:15 GMT

Perfect, thank you Dagmar! Unfortunately my GCSE German doesn't stretch that far, so am glad the abstract is translated ;-).

Here's hoping for a gesunde meerschweinchen!

Chris

Re: guinea pig pyo

Dagmar Steele — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 20:17:53 GMT

I think the OP said the guinea pig will be seeing it's usual vet tomorrow, so maybe no chance for updates :-( I'd be interested too, as the hamster didn't do well on it, but then it was pretty down when I first saw it...

Re: guinea pig pyo

Chris Geddes — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 20:12:01 GMT

Just checked BSAVA formulary and it also recommends 10mg/kg on d 1 2 8.

Onr last thing - good luck whatever route you take, and please let us know the outcome!

Chris

Re: guinea pig pyo

Dagmar Steele — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 20:09:11 GMT

it can be read here:

http://www.vetline.de/first_site.htm?id=251315&p=dpt_2006_01_0014.pdf

it's in German, but the summary is in English and Lorna has perfect German anyway :-)

Re: guinea pig pyo

Chris Geddes — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 20:06:08 GMT

Ah - found the reference.

Treatment of the metritis/pyometra complex with aglepristone in a guinea pig. von Engelhardt, A.B. PRAKTISCHE TIERARZT. 2006 Jahr 87; NUMB 1. pages 14-17.

I don't have it I'm afraid. Our tech chaps may or may not, and I can't access them on a Sunday night! Above is summary. But as I say, I bow to experience from an exotics bod if they come alone in the meantime!

Chris

Re: guinea pig pyo

Chris Geddes — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 19:58:34 GMT

Hi Lorna

I have no clinical experience but I can tell you that the use of Alizin in guinea pigs has been reported - in a single clinical case in a German paper (sorry, don't have reference to hand). Dose was 10mg/kg (0.33ml/kg) on D 1 2 8 and obv kept hospitalised. If antibiotics given, give probiotics too. Vulvar discharge seen in 3h, improvement in general health seen in 24h. No adverse events were reported.

Above for info, OHE still gold standard I think, risky as it is in a GP (I know which I'd prefer!).

Like others, hoping Mark or another exotic expert along with some real clinical experience soon, but hope above useful in meantime. If you go down the Alizin route, by all means call one of our tech team tomorrow on 01359 243 243 and selecting option 1 - they're more knowledgeable than me :)

Chris

Re: guinea pig pyo

Dagmar Steele — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 18:52:09 GMT

I'm far from being an expert, but Amox is a definite no-go in guinea pigs. Fluorchinolones are fine, or the old-fashioned Chloramphenicole. Re spays in guinea pigs - I've done a few and don't find them that challenging, although I'd always prefer spaying a cat. Giving the some fluids helps as well as good analgesia to keep death rates low. I would expect that Alizine works in guinea pigs, but I'm not sure (Mark???). The last hamster I treated with it because I wasn't allowed to operate on died an unspectacular death.... Could you do a scan? Many guinea pigs have ovarian cysts as well....

Re: guinea pig pyo

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 04 Mar 2012 17:43:07 GMT

I helped with a guinea pig caeser once. It died but the pups were dead and very rotten.

Maybe ask Virbac if you could use Alizin in guinea pigs, recent thread suggested it was probably ok in bunnies.