Vaccine problem?

Re: Vaccine problem?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 14:52:14 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Particularly when tested only against the manufacturer's strain of virus and not the "disease" or field strain and the proof is a serological response to that in-house strain only.[/quote]

Re: Vaccine problem?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 13:19:36 GMT

[quote user="Alex Allen"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]is not always fully appreciated even amongst the profession[/quote]

Very True!

[/quote]

Particularly when tested only against the manufacturer's strain of virus and not the "disease" or field strain and the proof is a serological response to that in-house strain only.

Re: Vaccine problem?

Alex Allen — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 12:35:30 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]is not always fully appreciated even amongst the profession[/quote]

Very True!

Re: Vaccine problem?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 10:44:58 GMT

[quote user="Alex Allen"] Again remind owners that flu vaccines do not offer sterilising immunity and vaccinated cats can become infected but should have reduced clinical signs.[/quote]

I think the above is something that is not always fully appreciated even amongst the profession.Thanks for your comprehensive reply, I admit my post was in part to wind you up but I think the pharmaceutical industry needs to be kept on its toes and not allowed to rest on its laurels as similar concerns with vaccine strain effectiveness in the presence of changing field strains arise with CPV vaccines and we know that being an RNA virus FCV can easily mutate as shown by FCV-VSD.

Re: Vaccine problem?

Alex Allen — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 10:08:32 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Why do manufacturers persist with F9 FCV virus strains when its been shown in a study by Lauritzen as far back as 1997 that it has as little as 40% effectiveness and vaccines containing the 255, G1 and 431 strains show better cross reactivity?[/quote]

Porter,Radford et al at Liverpool Uni did a geographical survey of isolates sampled in 2001 and published in 2007 that showed that F9 still had significant coverage of the UK isolates and greater neutralisation of isolates when compared to 255 - 87.5% vs 75%. Bear in mind this is only a antibody neutralisation study and its comparison to viral protection should be done cautiously. This study was not sponsored by any drug company and used random geographical samples to determine a true UK assessment. They also considered various complicating factors like comparing homologous titres which may alter results.

FCV F9 strain is probably the most widespread FCV vaccine strain (need to check GfK data) but from anecdotal reports it still seems to be offering significant protection with true "flu" outbreaks rarely occuring. Yes occasionally a flu case will be seen but if there are more cases being seen and the trend suggests that vaccinated cats are being more frequently affected with severe flu signs then there would be justification to review the strain used in the practice's cat vaccine. Again remind owners that flu vaccines do not offer sterilising immunity and vaccinated cats can become infected but should have reduced clinical signs.

Re: Vaccine problem?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 19:35:48 GMT

[quote user="Alex Allen"]The clinical significance is not known for certain but might, in immunocompromised individuals, cause clinical disease. [/quote]

This probably includes a large number of kittens with heavy parasite burdens and poor nutrition from indiscriminate breeders!

[quote user="Alex Allen"]We send the viral samples to Glasgow Uni where they have performed plaque comparison which gauges the degree of pathogenicity of the sample virus and compares it to a reference virus strains such as F9. In ALL the cases we have done this the results have shown a pathogenic strain was present in the cats that was significantly more pathogenic than the reference F9 strain[/quote]

Why do manufacturers persist with F9 FCV virus strains when its been shown in a study by Lauritzen as far back as 1997 that it has as little as 40% effectiveness and vaccines containing the 255, G1 and 431 strains show better cross reactivity?

Re: Vaccine problem?

Alex Allen — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 18:41:02 GMT

As Martin states above there is a possibility of viral replication in the oral cavity if the live vaccine viruses are inadvertently given by mouth - ie licked off the fur or inhalation of an aerosol. The viruses still retain tropism for epithelial cells and hence will replicate. The clinical significance is not known for certain but might, in immunocompromised individuals, cause clinical disease. Studies have identified vaccine strains in oral cavities but whether these have occured due to oral innoculation or translocation from the injection site is unknown. These are attenuated strains that purposefully do not produce many clinical signs.

We have had breeders claiming vaccines have caused clinical disease in their kittens despite no history of accidental oral administration - usually FCV infections. We send the viral samples to Glasgow Uni where they have performed plaque comparison which gauges the degree of pathogenicity of the sample virus and compares it to a reference virus strains such as F9. In ALL the cases we have done this the results have shown a pathogenic strain was present in the cats that was significantly more pathogenic than the reference F9 strain.... bad news for the breeder as it confirms they have a wild FCV problem.

Re: Vaccine problem?

Kate Richardson — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 18:22:48 GMT

That just goes to show you care about what you do which is a good thing

Re: Vaccine problem?

bob lehner — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 18:13:15 GMT

[quote user="tess"]Even after 20 years I still go over some consultations in my head wondering if I could have done it better.[/quote]

Blimey - I do this constantly - after 38 years !

Re: Vaccine problem?

mariette asselbergs — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 18:12:12 GMT

Thanks Martin, I notice two completely opposite reactions in the forum, between "this is nonsense" and "be careful there is something in it". I was not aware of any risk but I will now be careful. This is what makes these fora so interesting....!

Mariette

Re: Vaccine problem?

tess — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 18:04:41 GMT

A lot of us worry about things, don't we? It seems to go with the profession. Even after 20 years I still go over some consultations in my head wondering if I could have done it better.

Re: Vaccine problem?

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 27 Feb 2012 09:40:02 GMT

[quote user="mariette asselbergs"]

Martin\ and Julian: it would be nice if you would give the source of your information. Most of us participating in fora contribute our experience (anecdotes, and twopence for what it is worth) but if you come up with information you remember or have from other sources, then a reference would be very helpful andconvincing.

Mariette

[/quote]

Sorry I can't give a specific reference - I've done a quick search of literature I have to hand, and I don't have anecdotal experience as I have not experienced a problem from this phenomenon to my knowledge - maybe its because I'm careful and used attenuated vaccine. I assumed the risk of vaccine associated disease from spillage and aerosol was common knowledge, its been drummed into me at most feline viral talks I've been to. Its up to you if you choose to believe its a problem or not but I would advise it would be wise not to take the chance and be careful when giving vaccines although I wouldn't lie awake worrying about it if I accidentally spilled some vaccine.

Re: Vaccine problem?

karen jones — Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:00:55 GMT

We were a fevaxyn practice till Pfizer had vaccine plant problem and are now using versifel. We had problem with our only cat breeder where 2 batches of kittens went down with high temperatures and resp signs 4 days after the vaccine and some baby kittens that hadnt had colostrum died.. Pfizer were good paid for samples and pms and it turned out to be wild strain of calici in older kittens and bordetella in babies, no vaccinal strain.found.

I still don't really follow what went on but now mix the vaccine in another room and the o wipes the coat with alcohol wipes after vaccination when doing more than one kitten from the same household especially when kittens are worth several thousand!! There is data with the drug companies which say it is possible for disease to be spread form licking vaccine off coat and the breeder had a Swiss data sheet which apparently warns of this (she did bring it in but I don't read German!!)

Re: Vaccine problem?

mariette asselbergs — Sun, 26 Feb 2012 08:48:13 GMT

Mariette

Re: Vaccine problem?

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 19:14:27 GMT

IF any of this was a real problem that you really had to worry about it would be in the datasheet. It's not.

Linky

How some of you lot sleep at night worrying about these things................

Re: Vaccine problem?

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 19:05:40 GMT

Sorry to be the one who puts the cat amongst the pigeons (or in this case amongst a litter of immunologically naive kittens) but there is real if small risk that a) aerosolised vaccine can cause clinical disease in the kitten you are vaccinating and b) vaccine spilled on the skin does present a genuine risk to others which may lick it off. This is one reason I believe why Cats Protection use Fevaxyn which is a completely attenuated (in this context attenuated means killed) vaccine and one reason why I use it also. OK this breeder may have been a bit over-anxious but sometimes even breeders are correct and if the kittens do go down with FHV or FCV it may be hard to defend. The down side argument is that an attenuated vaccine has more adjuvant to compensate so the kittens will all get VSS so you can't win

Re: Vaccine problem?

Rob Loxley — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 12:41:25 GMT

Sod worrying about the vincristine and dox; I'll be asking the bosses for a laminar flow cabinet for the cat vaccines

Re: Vaccine problem?

Julian Earl — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 11:20:59 GMT

There used to be a significant risk of the live intranasal Katavac CH causing flu signs for one thing, plus a suspicion that an attenuated vaccine on the fur could cause flu symptoms. Similarly, I have been told by Intervet in the past that if you give a live attentuated injectable distemper vaccine intranasally, you will cause distemper albeit maybe a mild version.

I would hazard a guess that the breeder has got hold of some version of the suspicion about injectables being taken orally resulting in disease so, on this occasion, I would not be so quick to dismiss her fears even she is exaggerating the risk.

Re: Vaccine problem?

Bob Russell — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 11:04:58 GMT

Agree - there is a slight chance of problems from an aerosol with live vaccines. I have seen such a problem precisely zero times in my career. Panic not!

Re: Vaccine problem?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 10:00:30 GMT

We've all done it-and nothing has ever been harmed as a result

Wynne

Re: Vaccine problem?

Charlotte Marshall — Sat, 25 Feb 2012 08:34:34 GMT

I agree I wouldn't worry.

There is a small risk of an animal showing flu signs if the vaccine is aerosolised I believe, which is probably what she has heard rumours of and blown out of all proportion. They do suggest that flu vaccines are drawn up before the cat comes into the room, having said that I had not heard this until last year at a CPD meeting and in 14years not had a problem I have been aware of!

Re: Vaccine problem?

Lorna McHardy — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 23:39:52 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I hadn't done it for years and then recently went on a farm call and just took a single dose of vaccine with me. You can guess the rest..........

[/quote]

LOL! Well, you were just begging for that, weren't you... single dose, I mean, really

I find that on the rare occasions it still happens, it's always some thin titchy overbred terrified thing being clasped wrigglingly to a first-time, hyper-worried, waiting-for-opportunity-to-hate-you, resolutely-not-putting-it-on-the-table-until-after-much-persuasion owner's bosom

Re: Vaccine problem?

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 23:30:15 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]As for the transcutaneous injection... it's my belief that any vet who claims it's never happened, has either had a very short career, or a very short memory [/quote]

I hadn't done it for years and then recently went on a farm call and just took a single dose of vaccine with me. You can guess the rest..........

Re: Vaccine problem?

Lorna McHardy — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 23:23:42 GMT

Sometimes I wonder where on earth breeders get some of their weird notions from.

As for the transcutaneous injection... it's my belief that any vet who claims it's never happened, has either had a very short career, or a very short memory

Re: Vaccine problem?

plantagenet — Fri, 24 Feb 2012 22:17:52 GMT

Just to reassure you further - I still occasionally manage to inject the whole vaccine through the skin and out the other side, bounce the whole KC vaccine off a dog's nose and vaccinate myself, find I've somehow left more air than vaccine in the syringe and have to withdraw the needle sheepishly etc. etc. You probably just need to develop a bit of bravado (and breeder proof thick skin)