Making dogs vomit!

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Clive Ansell — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 07:46:40 GMT

ToxBox seems a good idea, although I have not used it as yet. To use the service one has to pay the standard VPIS consult fee, so it may be as cheap just to stock Apomorphine for these cases where specific poisoning advice is not needed?

What would be the advantage of freezing Apomorphine; presumably the expiry date still applies, and once breached the vial is no longer sterile and should be disposed of?

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 23:04:47 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]Apomorphine can be frozen and reused, you're not wasting the residue of the vial;[/quote]

Hi Gerry

How do you freeze it and maintain sterility? this isn't a catch you out question

Also apomorphine is available in the Vets Now tox box, so if you can't 'stomach' buying the box, you could enquire about buying one in advance

Neil

PS Washing Soda is recommended by the PDSA and as Hannah says 24/7 supermarkets are close to most.

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Alasdair Mathieson — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:36:11 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

I think I would use the out of date apomorphine first, but agreed it is so expensive it is difficult to justify stocking it in a one man practice

I can't believe I'm reading this. OK, its a bit expensive (but not THAT expensive), but it can be frozen and reused without any problem. Anyway, IMHO its your professional duty and responsibility to stock it because if you don't, and the dog won't let you syphon it full of H2O2 and water (OMG!!!), and it won't let you give it the washing soda crystal, and it dies of theobromine poisoning or whatever, and the owner complains to the College, the DC will throw the book at you and you'll deserve every page.

FFS, is this where we've ended up, in 2012, exchanging quack remedies because the simple, safe option is a bit dear. I'm glad I'm going out and not coming in, I really am.

[/quote]

Couldn't agree more.

First case today : owner in panic, spaniel had swallowed "something". 0.1ml ApoGo, up came a sock. Full 5ml vial charged, plus consultation, and one very happy and relieved owner.

Apomorphine is, by miles, the treatment of choice, however you look at it. It's a no-brainer.

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Clive Ansell — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:06:09 GMT

What is all the fuss and BS about? it seems it is not stupidly expensive, and in any event just bill the client for the whole vial. Having 1 or 2 vials in stock and spreading the cost over x number of consults over y years(y= time to exp date) is going to be be no big deal.

The same could be said for all emergency drugs in an anaesthetic crash box, most will (hopefully) never get used. Again why not just factor the cost in to the routine GA cost?

Price from the BNF

APO-go®

Injection, apomorphine hydrochloride 10 mg/mL, net price 2-mL amp = £7.59, 5-mL amp = £14.62.

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Robin Grimmer — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 20:58:42 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

Apomorphine can be frozen and reused, you're not wasting the residue of the vial; washing soda is fine, used it myself many times, but if you can't administer it (dog vicious, dog with badly # jaw) you've got to have plan B

[/quote]

I can't think of many occasions when I've had to induce emesis in a dog with a badly fractured jaw.

In fact it would be contra-indicated.

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 20:49:57 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]A few years ago I was asked by a dairy farmer whether I would supply peroxide for him to give intravenously because some organic advisor had told him what a useful alternative it was to antibiotics.[/quote]

The chemist sells hydrogen peroxide as a mouthwash.

You ever come across IV formaldehyde as treatment for haemorrhage from gutteral pouches? Never tried it myself.

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Lorna McHardy — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:32:47 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

A few years ago I was asked by a dairy farmer whether I would supply peroxide for him to give intravenously because some organic advisor had told him what a useful alternative it was to antibiotics.

[/quote]

--- !! ... ! fxxxczzfrrrgfzzzzz

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Lorna McHardy — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:31:30 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]

Sorry if the tone got a bit intolerant, the H202 thing really got my goat.

[/quote]

It looks as though a lot of people agree with you... don't think I've ever seen a post get 13 ratings before!

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Julian Earl — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 13:37:06 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I'd be appalled at oral H2O2 as well

Wynne

[/quote]

A few years ago I was asked by a dairy farmer whether I would supply peroxide for him to give intravenously because some organic advisor had told him what a useful alternative it was to antibiotics.

Do I need to add that I declined?

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 12:05:51 GMT

I'd be appalled at oral H2O2 as well

Wynne

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Gerry Henry — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 09:50:27 GMT

[quote user="Gerry Henry"]FFS, is this where we've ended up, in 2012, exchanging quack remedies because the simple, safe option is a bit dear. I'm glad I'm going out and not coming in, I really am.[/quote]

I'd say the washing soda is more safe than administering an opioid. It's very very effective.Just because my choice is different to yours does not make it negligent, as you seem to imply.

Personally wouldn't use peroxide, I'd rather GA and lavage.

[/quote][quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I'd say the washing soda is more safe than administering an opioid. It's very very effective.Just because my choice is different to yours does not make it negligent, as you seem to imply.

Personally wouldn't use peroxide, I'd rather GA and lavage.

[/quote]

If you can't administer the washing soda what then? I'm not saying you're being negligent, not my place, but in the situation where a dog dies because the VS doesn't have a reliable emetic appropriate to the case, the DC well might. Anyway, Apomorphine isn't that expensive and as I said above, it can be frozen and reused. Sorry if the tone got a bit intolerant, the H202 thing really got my goat.

Re: Making dogs vomit!

James Laidlaw — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 08:37:32 GMT

Apo isn't OTT expensive either. I had a few clients in a not so economically well off area last year pay close to £100 so we could make their dogs vomit when required and it doesn't involve anything more than a quick subcutaneous injection. I think there are a few different sources of apomorphine and concentrations too. The smaller ampoule were more expensive per dose, but less waste than cracking a larger ampoule and wasting the rest of the drug. At the end of the day, if you charge the whole ampoule when used, there's no loss involved...

As a side note - I think the last time I used peroxide for anything was flushing abcesses in cows. I recall not doing it in smallies as the concerns for scar tissue formation/oxidative damage to the tissues was too high. I would have thought it to be completely negligent to administer it orally for ANY reason - happy to be proved wrong, but staying on this side of the fence until that happens...

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 23:27:44 GMT

I'd say the washing soda is more safe than administering an opioid. It's very very effective.Just because my choice is different to yours does not make it negligent, as you seem to imply.

Personally wouldn't use peroxide, I'd rather GA and lavage.

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Gerry Henry — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:40:35 GMT

I think I would use the out of date apomorphine first, but agreed it is so expensive it is difficult to justify stocking it in a one man practice

FFS, is this where we've ended up, in 2012, exchanging quack remedies because the simple, safe option is a bit dear. I'm glad I'm going out and not coming in, I really am.

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 12:05:57 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

If patient not very obliging then I give them Xylazine and moderate sedative dose. Just as you think it won't work they vomit then sedate. Reverse with atipamezole.

Apomorphine just went out of date and is expensive so don't stock it.

[/quote]

I think I would use the out of date apomorphine first, but agreed it is so expensive it is difficult to justify stocking it in a one man practice. I've advocated the xylazine trick before but the last dog I gave it to just got very sedated and didn't vomit. It was only a suspected 'may have eaten a tiny bit of rat bait' so we observed it after that and it was fine. I have used washing soda in the past but it is rare for anyone to have it at home these days so I guess the salty water is the next best home treatment.

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 11:12:01 GMT

Luckily most people are within reach of a nearly 24/7 supermarket

Wynne

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Ana Santos — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 08:33:16 GMT

[quote user="jose targa"]Hydrogen peroxide + water same parts of each. I supose that this causes an acute gastritis...but is very useful in emergency cases!!!![/quote]

I studied in Portugal and I was taught the same: hydrogen peroxide, but diluted in 3 parts to minimize gastritis. But they don't sell H2O2 in the supermarkets here in UK like they do in the continent, so is not an valid option.

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 20 Feb 2012 07:52:41 GMT

Just a quick note - if I had to pick between salt and washing soda, I'd use the washing soda. Just replying to the "what do do if you don't have any" aspect of the question.

Re: Making dogs vomit!

KathW — Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:32:16 GMT

I did a google search and hydrogen peroxide looks very popular in the USA - on pet forums- for making dogs vomit.

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Gerry Henry — Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:12:38 GMT

[quote user="jose targa"]

Hi everyone

Hydrogen peroxide + water same parts of each. I supose that this causes an acute gastritis...but is very useful in emergency cases!!!!

[/quote]

Words fail me.

Re: Making dogs vomit!

jose targa — Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:34:10 GMT

Hi everyone

Hydrogen peroxide + water same parts of each. I supose that this causes an acute gastritis...but is very useful in emergency cases!!!!

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Sarah Jane Denny — Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:24:55 GMT

[quote user="katie mountford"]

VPIS advise against using salt to induce emesis due to the risk of salt poisoning...one of my colleagues has seen this in a poodle who's owner gave it salt water to make it sick-it wasn't sick but it did seizure from hypernatraemia!

[/quote]

I agree that using salt solution could cause a problem in itself. I have though seen it used once, when neither apomorphine nor soda crystals were available, caused spectacular vomiting whithin minutes, then the dog was kept in to watch out for salt poisoning!

Re: Making dogs vomit!

katie mountford — Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:34:55 GMT

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Robin Grimmer — Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:01:35 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

I've just seen a labrador that ate a very large chinese takeaway that had been thoughtfully left on the beach.

We think it was a tremorgenic mycotoxicosis.

[/quote]

Sure it wasn't MSG poisoning?

Re: Making dogs vomit!

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 19 Feb 2012 19:51:18 GMT

Washing soda is available from the Co-Op of all places and sold with the washing powder. Used as an eco friendly washing powder. Remains my go to treatment. Can either put a crystal or two on back of the tongue or make up a solution with warm water.

If patient not very obliging then I give them Xylazine and moderate sedative dose. Just as you think it won't work they vomit then sedate. Reverse with atipamezole.

Apomorphine just went out of date and is expensive so don't stock it.

Just a warning - make sure not to use caustic soda. Even dishwasher powder can be very caustic and I wouldn't advise the use.