self mutilation in labrador

Re: self mutilation in labrador

mariette asselbergs — Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:25:01 GMT

I have succesfully used a product called apple bitter to keep dogs from lick granulomas, but this sounds more mental. Use human copd medicine?

How did it start in this 11 year old? gradually, with some lesions?

Mariette

Re: self mutilation in labrador

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 17 Feb 2012 13:49:38 GMT

[quote user="Mark Lowrie"]

Diabetic neuropathy doesn’t really cause ataxia – this is a very common confusion. The disease affects the motor nerves and should spare the sensory nerves. Therefore it would be not be possible to get ataxia or self-mutilation as a result. Just weakness and paresis and hence the reason for the classic ‘plantigrade stance’ that cats can develop with diabetes mellitus.

[/quote]

I stand corrected, and five more stars for good measure! :)

Re: self mutilation in labrador

Mark Lowrie — Fri, 17 Feb 2012 12:41:35 GMT

I should qualify that last post by saying in 'dogs and cats'. I think humans may get some sensory involvement and dogs can get a sensory neuropathy but this is rarely, if ever, clinical and is something only detected on pathological examination of nerves.

Re: self mutilation in labrador

Mark Lowrie — Fri, 17 Feb 2012 12:35:14 GMT

Re: self mutilation in labrador

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 17 Feb 2012 12:27:33 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Mellor"]

there are no sensory deficits noticed and no ataxia or even hind limb stiffness which is amazing as she is a fat 11 year old labrador, I will let you know where we get up to

[/quote]

I know it's not likely, but what about a running a blood glucose? Diabetic neuropathy is supposed to be more ataxic than painful, but it's worth a look...

Re: self mutilation in labrador

Andrew Mellor — Fri, 17 Feb 2012 09:41:18 GMT

there are no sensory deficits noticed and no ataxia or even hind limb stiffness which is amazing as she is a fat 11 year old labrador, I will let you know where we get up to

Re: self mutilation in labrador

Mark Lowrie — Fri, 17 Feb 2012 09:17:49 GMT

If the dog is walking well and otherwise normal I would not be concerned about a spinal cord or central nervous system issue.

An inherited sensory neuropathy can lead to mutilation and usually is accompanied by some degree of ataxia. However, it can present with signs of mutilation to the distal limbs as the sole-presenting sign. There would be no treatment for these neuropathies and so management is centred on controlling the mutilation. This would mean that a work-up in these cases is usually only for academic purpose rather than for decision making. Gabapentin (10-20mg/kg TID) is a good place to start in these cases and amitriptyline could then be used if gabapentin doesn’t work or isn’t 100% effective.

Amitriptyline takes 2 weeks to reach steady state in humans but the half-life is shorter in dogs (I think it is aourn 8-9 hours as opposed to 30 hours in humans). The reason I mention this is it means theoretically if you start amitriptyline it should reach steady state quite quickly i.e. within a week. However, I am not sure pharmacokinetic studies have been done on the dog to prove this.

If you try gabapentin +/- amitriptyline could you let us know how the dog gets on? Thanks.

Re: self mutilation in labrador

James Laidlaw — Thu, 16 Feb 2012 18:26:04 GMT

Referral? Neuro specialist sounds like a good idea...

Re: self mutilation in labrador

Julian Earl — Thu, 16 Feb 2012 18:20:44 GMT

Neurological pain due to spinal disease? Just a thought.

Re: self mutilation in labrador

plantagenet — Thu, 16 Feb 2012 17:46:00 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Mellor"]amitryptiline or gabapentin [/quote]

+ physio and acupuncture

worked a treat.