Hair testing for allergies.....

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Niall Taylor — Sat, 24 Mar 2012 12:14:45 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]I have yet to understand how what is essentially a form of sympathetic magic can be taken seriously by anyone.

Wonder if there's money involved.... [/quote]

Oh, I think that's pretty much a given really - what I can't understand is how the promoters keep a straight face while they're talking to their marks customers!

Niall

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Niall Taylor — Sat, 24 Mar 2012 10:47:35 GMT

[quote user="emma o'connor"]This is a new one on me. Had a client come in this afternoon with a 10month old Irish Wolfhound, with a history of pruritus for 3 months. She proceeded to tell me she has already had it allergy tested, on recommendation by the breeder , who gave her the details for a vet who diagnoses various food allergies etc on a hair sample sent in the post.!!!!

I personally think this is complete twaddle, and wondered if anyone else had come across this. Apart from the fact that i don't believe food intolerances can be reliably diagnosed by any sort of test other than a rigourous food trial, how this holistic vet (she showed me the email, in fact she made me a copy) made a diagnosis of allergy without seeing the animal at all let alone done any basic skin work up. amazes me![/quote]

Completely unethical - couldn't agree more. Making a diagnosis and prescribing treatment without seeing the animal - this is a matter for the RCVS surely?

Niall

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Bob Russell — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 11:06:17 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"] Clearly quackery is getting to new levels of sophistication! [/quote]

Indeed - "Bioregulation balances the ground regulation at the cellular level but also higher psycho neuro immuno endocrine systems and re-establishes the tissue micro-environment informational capacity."

Obvious really!

Niall

[/quote]

Does anyone know if taking this course would count as CPD by the Royal College? There is always room for a money making toy in our practice (on the shelf next to all the other bits of kit that seemed a good idea at the time!).

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Anonymous — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 21:53:34 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Henfrey"]

I think it is in the Idexx catalogue at about £45 +VAT, but has a 2 weeks turnaround.

Andrew

[/quote]

Thanks Andrew, I'll check that out as happened to be looking to test a dog this week coincidentally.

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Anonymous — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 21:52:34 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Why use ivermectin in dogs?[/quote]

Some of the reported uses include:

Adult-onset generalised demidicosis (e.g. starting at 0.1mg/kg PO day 1 and gradually increasing to 0.5mg/kg orally on day 5, and this is continued every day until one month beyond a completely negative skin scraping)

Sarcoptic mange (e.g. 0.3mg/kg orally once a week for 6 weeks, or every 2 weeks for 3 treatments)

Heartworm prophylaxis

Adult-onset demodicosis is the only reason I've personally used it (amitraz washes are a viable alternative, though not without their own downsides, while Promeris and Advocate,even weekly, really don't seem to be that effective and the former has bad press now due to PF...). Assuming you're not sending amitraz home with the owners for them to do the bathing, it's probably more cost-effective also (though that has nothing to do with clinical decision making obviosuly as cost is never an issue to dog owners - especially not with Irish Wolfhound owners who find that their dogs defaecate an endless supply of cash to cover vet costs... I'm being sarcastic at UK cas**de, not anyone on forum!)

If I wasn't a vet and had 3 Irish Wolfhounds myself with sarcoptic mange, I think I'd be pretty keen on the cost of ivermectin rather than Stronghold or the like. I'd be irate that the vet wasn't allowed to discuss that cheaper option with me in a fully informed manner...

Thanks for the info on other breeds, Emma. I'll be a bit more wary of risks of ivermectin toxicity in other purebreds now.

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Niall Taylor — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 21:29:39 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Henfrey"]I think... [/quote]

Niall

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Andrew Henfrey — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 20:43:05 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="David Beattie"]You don't happen to know off-hand if there is a cheaper alternative for testing than the £72.50 (incl VAT) via Laboklin?[/quote]

I am far from an expert on the subject but I don't believe there is a cheaper alternative - as far as I'm aware WSU still has the patent on the test and lets it out to the European lab under license so the price is fixed. Presumably the patent will expire at some point though

Cheers,

Niall

[/quote]

I think it is in the Idexx catalogue at about £45 +VAT, but has a 2 weeks turnaround.

Andrew

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Niall Taylor — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 20:14:27 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"] Clearly quackery is getting to new levels of sophistication! [/quote]

Obvious really!

Niall

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Niall Taylor — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 20:01:54 GMT

[quote user="David Beattie"]You don't happen to know off-hand if there is a cheaper alternative for testing than the £72.50 (incl VAT) via Laboklin?[/quote]

Cheers,

Niall

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Lorna McHardy — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 19:33:36 GMT

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]

I might be being thick, and I am no dermatologist but can anyone describe the gulf of clear blue intellectual water that might exist between allergy testing using hair samples (which, here at least, is being unequivocally condemned) and regular homeopathy (which within vetsurgeon, and even in the inner sanctum of RCVS council, has its adherents)?

[/quote]

I've no idea, Malcolm. I have yet to understand how what is essentially a form of sympathetic magic can be taken seriously by anyone.

Wonder if there's money involved....

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Clive Ansell — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 19:32:25 GMT

[quote user="emma o'connor"]

Had a client come in this afternoon with a 10month old Irish Wolfhound, with a history of pruritus for 3 months. She proceeded to tell me she has already had it allergy tested, on recommendation by the breeder , who gave her the details for a vet who diagnoses various food allergies etc on a hair sample sent in the post.!!!!

[/quote]

Sounds like utter boy cow poo, but what were the results of the "testing", and what is the dog allegedly allergic too?

As Blackadder would say; "there is just one tiny flaw in the plan - it's bollocks"

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Rob Davis — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:25:57 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

http://www.biomedic.co.uk/post_conference_seminars.html

Clearly quackery is getting to new levels of sophistication!

[/quote]

Why do they have a photo of a stethoscope on their website? If they were really sophisticated they'd know that such tools are antiquated. All they need is the eLybra....

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Bob Russell — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:01:45 GMT

http://www.biomedic.co.uk/post_conference_seminars.html

Clearly quackery is getting to new levels of sophistication!

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

emma o'connor — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:49:23 GMT

I have an apology to make. The owner told me it was a vet who did the hair testing, however I have managed after a day of detective work to track down the website, and he is not a vet, he actually has a Postgraduate Diploma in Bioregulatory Medicine and Homeotherapeutics, so is not a member of the veterinary profession. I forgot the first rule of history taking...... don't always believe everything you are told

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:44:04 GMT

Fair enough

Wynne

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

emma o'connor — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:01:53 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]Why use ivermectin in dogs?[/quote]

The very few occasions I have used it has been for generalised demodecosis,, non responsive to licenced therapies, after advice from dermatologists.

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:52:23 GMT

Why use ivermectin in dogs?

Wynne

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

emma o'connor — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:49:03 GMT

[quote user="David Beattie"]but would still be interesting to know what breeds as they may have a problem with ABCB1 mutation that just isn't recognised yet[/quote]

great information on all the breeds thanks. Some i wasn't aware of. I have seen reactions in Labradors, Boxers, and Staffies. They did range from minor gi signs and slight tremors, to more serious neurological signs. Thankfully all recovered after withdrawal of the medication and supportive treatment. It hasn't put me off using Ivermectin, just made me a little more cautious.

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Rob Davis — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:19:40 GMT

Stop giving the other vet a hard time! If you read the information about eLybra, you will understand that it is no longer necessary to touch or even see your patients, in fact you don't even have to take a history or speak to the clients.

"The computer detects the individual signature pattern matches, through a resonance and biofeedback mechanism. In other words, the e-Lybra® 9 and the body hold a conversation of equal importance, so that the body effectively chooses what remedies it requires and in what order to most efficiently achieve overall balance. "

And as if that wasn't good enough, the owner doesn't even need to give tablets:

"It is now possible to programme an e-Pendant or e-Pebble instead of consumable tablets. The e-Pendant can be worn on a cord around the neck or the e-Pebble can be placed in a pocket. Provided they are within about 7cm of the body the programme stored will influence the wearer on a continuous basis until removed. Both are fitted with a radio-tag so that they can be programmed at distance. The e-Pendant can also be attached to the collar of medium or larger breed dogs."

Mind-blowingly brilliant. Buy and eLybra and put your feet up, life is about to become sooooo much easier.....

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Anonymous — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:13:54 GMT

Thanks Niall.

You seem to be a bit of an authority on the subject. You don't happen to know off-hand if there is a cheaper alternative for testing than the £72.50 (incl VAT) via Laboklin?

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Hannah Wynne Richards — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:11:49 GMT

If RCVS bothered to read the 1966 VSA they would find that for a lay person toadvise another on a veterinary matter is actually illegal-but they are so scared of being seen to be protective of the profession they won't do anything

Wynne

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Niall Taylor — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:59:26 GMT

[quote user="David Beattie"]My understanding was that the vast majority of bad reactions were due to mutations of the ABCB1 / MDR1 gene and that the common mutation responsible had only been identified in a small number of breeds[/quote]

I've just replied to this same subject in another thread - http://www.vetsurgeon.org/forums/p/10701/55232.aspx#55232

Niall

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Anonymous — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:33:00 GMT

[quote user="emma o'connor"]but i have certainly seen dogs react badly to very low doses of it when used in accordance with the cascade ( and no they weren't collies or collie types). [/quote]

My understanding was that the vast majority of bad reactions were due to mutations of the ABCB1 / MDR1 gene and that the common mutation responsible had only been identified in a small number of breeds:

Australian Shepherd

Border Collie

Collie

English Shepherd

German Shepherd

Longhaired Whippet

Miniature Australian Shepherd

McNab

Old English Sheepdog

Shetland Sheepdog

Silken Windhound

Bobtail

American White Shepherd

and obviously mixed breed dogs.

If you've seen reactions in other purebred dogs, then of course these could be due to a different mutation or an unrelated idiosyncratic reaction or whatever, but would still be interesting to know what breeds as they may have a problem with ABCB1 mutation that just isn't recognised yet.

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

Niall Taylor — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:18:02 GMT

[quote user="emma o'connor"]... it is not her place to be advising other people to do so.[/quote]

Quite, it doesn't bode well for the developing therapeutic relationship.

Niall

Re: Hair testing for allergies.....

emma o'connor — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:10:09 GMT

[quote user="David Beattie"]I wouldn't consider this is quite so wacky as the reported hair-allergy testing. Assuming a sensible oral dose, I think she would be incredibly unlucky in a purebred Irish Wolfhound to have had an adverse reaction to the drug.[/quote]

I agree that sensible dosing of ivermectin can be used safely, but i have certainly seen dogs react badly to very low doses of it when used in accordance with the cascade ( and no they weren't collies or collie types). My issue lies in the fact that as a veterinary surgeon we have to follow very strict guidelines for the use of off licence medications, and we are able to do so because we have undergone appropriate training etc, regardless of whether the breeder has years of experience in giving this drug to her wolfhounds, it is not her place to be advising other people to do so.