coughing and heart failure

Re: coughing and heart failure

argyro koukouseli — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 19:07:20 GMT

also,thank you all for your replies

Re: coughing and heart failure

argyro koukouseli — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 18:49:37 GMT

no,colleagues suggested it to minimize coughing.not as a part of protocol in treating heart failure

Re: coughing and heart failure

Anonymous — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 18:32:03 GMT

I thought the corticosteroid and heart thing was in cats - I wasn't aware that steroid administration had clinically been linked to either precipitating or exacerbating heart failure in a dog?

Re: coughing and heart failure

argyro koukouseli — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 18:14:48 GMT

there are no abnormal breathing sounds and an x ray taken one month ago, showed left atrial enlargement and mild pulmonary eodema,so prilactone was added along with furosemide and aceis and diet.the dog is currently suffering from dry coughing which occurs also at rest.ACEIs dose increasing, caused hypotension in the past,so dose was reduced again. is pimobendane also likely to also cause hypotention,will the use of pimobendane help at the moment or will it work as a preventative for further heart enlargement and pullmonary hyrpertension?are steroids contraidicated if x ray taken and no pulmonary oedema present?the dogs quality of life,other than coughing,is good,and no sings of dyspnea present.

Re: coughing and heart failure

Andrew Kent — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 17:37:31 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Andrew Kent"] a case like this[/quote]

What, dry cough and sneezing is pulmonary oedema? Gee, I really am out of touch, or is it the OP case and not the Gordon setter??

[/quote] Sorry missed the Gordon setter post - was responding to OP which I now see Had moved onto a different topic without me realising!

Re: coughing and heart failure

Anthony Todd — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 16:26:21 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Kent"] a case like this[/quote]

What, dry cough and sneezing is pulmonary oedema? Gee, I really am out of touch, or is it the OP case and not the Gordon setter??

Re: coughing and heart failure

Andrew Kent — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 14:52:35 GMT

Steroids would have a marked negative effect on systolic function in a cardiac case and so do not see where they have a place in a case like this. I think it is more likely that it is pulmonary oedema causing your coughing. Andy

Re: coughing and heart failure

Anthony Todd — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 12:59:44 GMT

[quote user="argyro koukouseli"]male gordon setter.3y old,hunting dog,episodes of dry cough and sneezing,especially during a south wind.[/quote]

Of course it'd get better in 6 months when the grass etc. stopped giving off allergens.....

One for a jab of good ol' Bets too methinks, and I'd guarantee a response in 24 hours too.

Re: coughing and heart failure

Martin Atkinson — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 19:11:05 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Just a jab of Betsolan

[/quote]

Many a true word is spoke in jest. When all else fails never let anything die without trying a course of corticosteroids!

Re: coughing and heart failure

argyro koukouseli — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 10:22:45 GMT

true!really made me laugh out loud...what can i do?i have to make a living...and now my husband also makes fun of me and calls me the dog-o whisperer.anywhay,we can to this in another forum ,headlined why not ban rottweilers also.

Re: coughing and heart failure

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 09:42:16 GMT

Personally I would have to be 100% certain there wasn't any oedaema before giving steroids to a cardiac case

Wynne

Re: coughing and heart failure

Simon Neuhoff — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 09:29:02 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]

You could try homeopathy yeah, or pee in the dog's ear for the good it'll do

[/quote]

As long as its not a pitbull - or an Argentine Dogo!

Re: coughing and heart failure

Rob Loxley — Sat, 11 Feb 2012 08:45:43 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]We all have stores. Don't you?[/quote]

I dread to think what's in the back of the drawer... My old practice still had a large bottle of ether in the cupboard.

Re: coughing and heart failure

Anthony Todd — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 22:41:40 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Just a jab of Betsolan[/quote]

I thought Betsolan was discontinued years ago?

[/quote]

I'm talking about years ago......!, but what about the cough reflex, is that passe now too?

Re: coughing and heart failure

james herriot lied — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 19:30:09 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

I thought Betsolan was discontinued years ago?

[/quote]

We all have stores. Don't you? Anthony is mistaken, though: it's the B12 which makes the magic happen.

Re: coughing and heart failure

Rob Loxley — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:48:39 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Just a jab of Betsolan[/quote]

I thought Betsolan was discontinued years ago?

Re: coughing and heart failure

Anthony Todd — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:28:17 GMT

Yeeks, not steroids benefiting an animal again, that's twice in as many years....

Seriously though I thought there was such a thing as the cough cycle ie a cough irritates so they cough; reduce or break the cycle [with steroids] and the cough stops.

With ancillary treatment, as diagnosed, it usually worked for me when all the theoretical or recommended treatments hadn't. Just a jab of Betsolan [no B12 necessary]

I hear that you should treat the original cause too, before I get jumped on again.

Re: coughing and heart failure

argyro koukouseli — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:54:14 GMT

or mail some chordae tendineae for testing...but now i am being bad.i ll stop it.or say that i am considering sending the dog for yoga lessons along with homeopathy..and then stop it

Re: coughing and heart failure

Christopher Saul — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:29:46 GMT

You could try homeopathy yeah, or pee in the dog's ear for the good it'll do

Re: coughing and heart failure

Julian Earl — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:28:38 GMT

Nux vomica is strychnine if I remember rightly.

Anyway, Lomotil can be used as an effective cough suppressant, notwithstanding the Dick White comment above!

Re: coughing and heart failure

argyro koukouseli — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:22:07 GMT

ACEIs cause cough as side effect in humans.I ve tried theo-dur(brochodilator)once,as that we where told to do as univerc students,but didnt work at all.If nothing works maybe i ll consider homeopathy,as in hair testing for allergies....reminded me of this homeopathologist,not a vet,who ,in 2009,during greek veterinary congress,presented a case where a male gordon setter.3y old,hunting dog,episodes of dry cough and sneezing,especially during a south wind....it was not supposed to be due to heart problem,but although convetional treatment failed,homeopathy treatment with nux vomica(i have no idea what this is)leaded to complete resolution after 6 months according to the owner....

i am not into that stuff but since homeopathy is in the game today,it poped into my head

Re: coughing and heart failure

bob lehner — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:15:55 GMT

There was a vogue some time ago for reducing the intractable cough resulting from an enlarged L.A. pressing on the bronchi with prednisolone - I'm fairly sure it came from no less a luminary than Mike Herrtage at Cambridge Vet School.

Re: coughing and heart failure

Anonymous — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:28:30 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]ACEi can cause a cough as a side effect.[/quote]

Not well recognised/studied in dogs I think. Common side effect in humans, but I think that's thought to be because of a specific polymorphism in bradykinin receptors affecting about 10% of the population. ACE degrades bradykinin. You could get round this pharmacologically with an angiotensin antagonist like losartan rather than an ACEi which wouldn't therefore affect bradykinin metabolism.

[quote user="Richard Carter"]one should not be suppressing a cough with anything - there is probably a physiological need.[/quote]

Cough can be pathological also, and with CHF in dog often is. I would supress with butorphanol so the dog and owner could get a good night's sleep. Similar statementscould be made about pyrexia, vomiting and pain all being physiological therefore we clearly should never suppress them?!

Re: coughing and heart failure

Dagmar Steele — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:18:34 GMT

it's in my brain, too. Possible side effect of ACE inhibitors is cough. Will have to look that up...

Re: coughing and heart failure

Richard Carter — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:12:23 GMT

seem to remember a comment from some CPD that ACEi can cause a cough as a side effect. However as I now cannot find the source and have looked through various formularies, this may be a short circuit in my brain!! The other CPD which was given by Dick White comment clearly taken on was that one should not be suppressing a cough with anything - there is probably a physiological need. Rather concentrate on oedema control, bronchodilation, mucous management etc