Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 16:57:11 GMT

5 stars for following your new 'less is more' approach Martin...

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 11:48:50 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Does anyone have any evidence that any of these multi-dose bottle 'require' binning after 28 days? Do they magically stop working? Do they suddenly harbour nasty bugs on day 29?

[/quote] Don't be silly, the VMD has irrefutable evidence that the active ingredients cease to work at 12.00 am on day 29 and that overnight they become a cesspit of fungal and pathological bacterial culture otherwise they would not have issued such guidance - would they? This is why I religiously wait up until 11.59 pm every night and discard all bottles breached 28 days before including the Cartrophen because although the manufacturers say its OK for 3 months the VMB cannot be wrong - can they?

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Bob Russell — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 10:06:21 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]and put a 3 month discard days following breaching the bottle so it became more economical to use, [/quote]

That's very interesting - I wonder how they managed to do that - virtually every other injectable product now has a 28 day discard period written into the data sheet.

As a matter of interest does anyone know of any others which have a longer than 28 day discard ?

[/quote]

Does anyone have any evidence that any of these multi-dose bottle 'require' binning after 28 days? Do they magically stop working? Do they suddenly harbour nasty bugs on day 29?

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Martin Atkinson — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 08:34:19 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]t may be that since the universal 28 day rule has been evoked this has changed but I'm deliberately not checking just in case![/quote]

No - I was so surprised that I've checked - and you are correct. I'd love to know how they managed to swing that one !

[/quote] You don't think common sense prevailed do you? No - that would be far too sensible.

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Rajat — Thu, 15 Nov 2012 04:17:46 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Are you awarding them for what I said or for what I said I might do i.e. stop prevaricating - there are many who would approve of that no doubt![/quote]

For both, but more for the former as I found it funny!

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

bob lehner — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 21:09:01 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]t may be that since the universal 28 day rule has been evoked this has changed but I'm deliberately not checking just in case![/quote]

No - I was so surprised that I've checked - and you are correct. I'd love to know how they managed to swing that one !

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 19:15:49 GMT

[quote user="Rajat"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Clearly if this deserved 5 gold stars less clearly means more, perhaps I'll stop my prevaricating[/quote]

Lol - here are 5 for you.. not that I gave the 5 to Wynne but I know what you mean.

[/quote] Can't see my stars! Are you awarding them for what I said or for what I said I might do i.e. stop prevaricating - there are many who would approve of that no doubt!

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Rajat — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 19:10:58 GMT

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]Of course I'm a medic and not an orthopaedic surgeon, so my opinion probably doesn't count for much. Here's hoping an orthopod or two might reply to this thread...........[/quote]

Interesting you say this Chris - I would have guessed we in GP treat far more OA than the orthopaedic surgeons do Tho I do not doubt some are far more up to date with the literature in this field than us GPs

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Rajat — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 19:08:00 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]Clearly if this deserved 5 gold stars less clearly means more, perhaps I'll stop my prevaricating[/quote]

Lol - here are 5 for you.. not that I gave the 5 to Wynne but I know what you mean.

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 19:05:29 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

I like cartrophen

Wynne

[/quote]Clearly if this deserved 5 gold stars less means more, perhaps I'll stop my prevaricating.

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 18:25:54 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

As a matter of interest does anyone know of any others which have a longer than 28 day discard ?

[/quote]

Artuvetrin is the only one that comes immediately to mind.

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Hannah Wynne Richards — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 18:04:52 GMT

I like cartrophen

Wynne

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 17:53:53 GMT

[quote user="bob lehner"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]and put a 3 month discard days following breaching the bottle so it became more economical to use, [/quote]

That's very interesting - I wonder how they managed to do that - virtually every other injectable product now has a 28 day discard period written into the data sheet.

As a matter of interest does anyone know of any others which have a longer than 28 day discard ?

[/quote] It may be that since the universal 28 day rule has been evoked this has changed but I'm deliberately not checking just in case!

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Rajat — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 17:53:35 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]I'm a big fan as well. Its been round for longer than you've been a vet (probably) Raj and I wasn't a fan back in the day.[/quote]

Haha I am sure you've been using it longer Martin, I am only a '05 graduate. Adequan in the US is still used IM tho I hear rumours it is poss to give it SC too.

Bob we keep all drugs for 28 days .

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"] I'm not so sure of its place in replacing NSAIDs when they become less effective, [/quote]

I agree - I usually use it in addition to them or find it helps to reduce the dose somewhat. Or that it adds comfort to those dogs on NSAIDs who still ain't doin' right.

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

bob lehner — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 17:49:08 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]and put a 3 month discard days following breaching the bottle so it became more economical to use, [/quote]

That's very interesting - I wonder how they managed to do that - virtually every other injectable product now has a 28 day discard period written into the data sheet.

As a matter of interest does anyone know of any others which have a longer than 28 day discard ?

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Martin Atkinson — Wed, 14 Nov 2012 09:05:18 GMT

[quote user="Rajat"]Also a big fan of cartrophen.Repeatedly see dogs on long term NSAIDS improving on cartrophen.[/quote] I'm a big fan as well. Its been round for longer than you've been a vet (probably) Raj and I wasn't a fan back in the day. But since they changed it to S/C rather than I/M which was bloody painful and put a 3 month discard days following breaching the bottle so it became more economical to use, I've use it in earnest. I'm not so sure of its place in replacing NSAIDs when they become less effective, I've found it is at its best given at the first signs of lameness and followed up every 3 months even if lameness has not recurred. I've had issues with dogs with kidney disorders much like you may with NSAIDs and it doesn't seem as effective in more advanced cases of OA. I just wonder, if you believe in fairies glucosamine/chondroitin whether there is an advantage of giving that concurrently - no-one has been able to answer that one satisfactorily, but given a theoretical similar mode of action there seems little point.

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Rajat — Tue, 13 Nov 2012 20:31:03 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]

[quote user="Malcolm Ness"]I believe that j/d contains a natural source (as opposed to a factory produced) of a known NSAID[/quote]

I wasn't aware of that... What does it contain and how does it not have to be licensed if it has a pharmacological effect. Does this mean it should not be used alongside other NSAIDs?

[/quote]

I'm also fascinated to know what this natural NSAID is that is in JD - if confirmed to be true I don't think that is gonna go down well at all (with most vets)!

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Rajat — Tue, 13 Nov 2012 20:11:21 GMT

[quote user="james herriot lied"]hemp oil has the best natural balance, so why not google it and put the whole family on it at the same time.[/quote]

I use it for cooking and salads but the Mrs hates the smell - says it smells like fish. Don't see the problem- it's me who is the veggie and she who is the carnivore!

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

james herriot lied — Tue, 13 Nov 2012 20:06:11 GMT

Hemp oil. Seriously. A d*mn sight cheaper than glucosamine and it at least has some evidence behind it. It's also not something I can sell, so I suggest to clients that current evidence for gluc/chond in humans is weak to non-existent, but that EFAs are showing some positive effects; hemp oil has the best natural balance, so why not google it and put the whole family on it at the same time.

My kids just LOVE their oily juice.

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Rajat — Tue, 13 Nov 2012 20:01:26 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]

[quote user="Christopher Saul"]Our vetplus rep certainly recommends synoquin over gomega (both vetplus products) for arthritis[/quote] I've just realised the irony in this: Vetplus have just brought out a combined GAG/Omega 3 supplement.

[/quote]

Yes I saw this with some amusemenet as I had a vigorous discussion with the vetplus rep as to the shortcomings of having a product only with Glucosamines in it and not EFAs for which there was the best evidence amongst all nutraceuticals. I dont think he knew his company was bringing out this product as some months later(this month) I saw the ad!

I use high dose Omega 3s for many inflammatory conditions and have often seen remarkable improvements and I'd say see some response in about 70% of cases. As someone said the human literature supports some of this and on the basis it is unlikely to do harm being a supplement I do use 40mg/kg EPA and 10mg/kg DHA. Often NSAID doses can be drastically reduced. Also a big fan of cartrophen.Repeatedly see dogs on long term NSAIDS improving on cartrophen. Don't have much EBM to back this yet really- just personal experience and that of colleagues.

Funny thing is - tyried asking what dose of EPA/DHA is in JD in mg/kg for dogs/cats. They went around in circles but eventually were unable to give me a straight answer! I dont use it, I just use go omega or arthri aid or yumove. However I have seen pets on JD from other vets/colleagues improving substantially.

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Gareth C. — Tue, 13 Nov 2012 18:55:22 GMT

Over the last ten years we've seen consistent and convinving resposnse to cartrophen.. As for the supplements I was quite sceptical until recently started taking the one with boswelia and glucosamine/chondroitin and , as martin said too, my knees seem better on them. I think anecdotal evidence isn't something we should rely on too much, but if a practice sees many cases over a long period of time we may attribute some weight to that, may we?

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 13 Nov 2012 17:20:54 GMT

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

Sarah Keir — Tue, 13 Nov 2012 17:05:46 GMT

I didn't 'believe' until I put my own slightly eldery springer on j/d - she went back to being a puppy within a week and I am not kidding.

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

plantagenet — Tue, 13 Nov 2012 15:17:10 GMT

I know if I've forgotten to give my lab with DJD in his knee his green lipped muscle containing supplement. He's been on it long enough, and I've forgotten often enough, to convince myself. I am also a great believer in turmeric - now also being given along side chemo for bowel cancer in a trial, thought to be both therapeutic and preventative.

Re: Supplements in arthritis: GAGs or fish oil?

patrick murphy — Tue, 13 Nov 2012 13:48:04 GMT

was a double,double blind in horses that showed green lipped mussel to be effective. does anyone know a a UK human product with this, as the only one that I can find has horse size tablets that reek of mussel which is not a freat taste in the morning with your orange juice