Client confidientiality

Re: Client confidientiality

Bob Russell — Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:35:47 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Fortunately she has not worked out that the battery went flat months (or more) ago!![/quote]

My dogs work this out very quickly, so vigilance is required!

[/quote]

Mine is a staffie and clearly not as bright!

Re: Client confidientiality

Rob Davis — Mon, 30 Jan 2012 17:28:32 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Fortunately she has not worked out that the battery went flat months (or more) ago!![/quote]

My dogs work this out very quickly, so vigilance is required!

Re: Client confidientiality

Bob Russell — Mon, 30 Jan 2012 10:53:55 GMT

[quote user="Robin Grimmer"]

I thought the Animal Welfare Act 2006 allowed veterinary surgeons to effectively bypass the client confidentiality problem if confronted with an animal welfare issue?

I once had a client who owned a young GSD, over which they had no control. They were an Arab family, Egyptian I think. Anyway the husband got some collar from the internet that give electric shocks and various other things. It had a pair of electrodes which were in contact with the skin. Husband went abroad and the wife (who was scared of the dog) was looking after it. She began to notice a smell coming from the dog but was too afraid to go near it. She even texted the husband to ask what she should do. When husband returned a week later he brought the dog for examination. The collar was way too tight and the electrodes had caused quite an extensive area of necrosis - either due to the electric current or possibly just from pressure.

I reported them to the RSPCA and the inspector came and the dog was seized from the owners.

[/quote]

The electric current is unlikely to have caused the problem but on all the electric collars are warnings to check the area under the electrodes regularly for signs of soreness. Some of these are creeping in from China and may have doubtful quality!

I can see no place for the 'training type' collars. if an owner can press a button to give the dog a shock then the potential for abuse is enormous. To allow the neck to become necrotic is a disgrace and seizing the dog should be the least of the owners worries.

My Staffie wears a containment type collar because she has been a runner for years and has got into a lot of trouble in the past. She does not worry about having the collar put on and actually bounces in excitement at the prospect of going outside. We are fortunate in having a fair amount of land but she insisted in exploring miles of territory, getting a pretty serious warning from the Police. Without this containment she would have needed rehoming or euthanasia years back.

Fortunately she has not worked out that the battery went flat months (or more) ago!!

Re: Client confidientiality

Hannah Wynne Richards — Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:44:29 GMT

Clive They gave me permission to report the owner to the RSPCA if I felt animal welfare was compromised-which enabled me to be a lot more fprceful than previously with the owner -so you see , we have the power to police things if we have the courage to do so

Wynne

Re: Client confidientiality

Robin Grimmer — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:40:59 GMT

I thought the Animal Welfare Act 2006 allowed veterinary surgeons to effectively bypass the client confidentiality problem if confronted with an animal welfare issue?

I reported them to the RSPCA and the inspector came and the dog was seized from the owners.

Re: Client confidientiality

james herriot lied — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 16:01:41 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

it's veterinary surgeons like Micheal who allow puppy farms to flourish

[/quote]

I realise that this has already been flagged up, but Hannah -

Had you had a bit of a bad day, perhaps?

Re: Client confidientiality

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 15:19:17 GMT

[quote user="Lorna McHardy"]

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

it's veterinary surgeons like Micheal who allow puppy farms to flourish

[/quote]

Given that Michael actually suggested exactly what everyone else does in practice (talk to pet shop owner, treat pet, and tell new pet owner to contact trading standards if appropriate), that comment seems more than a little unfair

[/quote]

Thanks for that Lorna, I thought it a little harsh!

Wynne, we can only uphold the welfare of the animals in our care. We don't have any puppy farmers, but if we did I would do the best job I possibly could in advising to keep the animals as healthy as possible. We have one client who breeds 4-6 litters per year as she is one of the most compliant owners we have, all dogs wormed very frequently, everything vaccinated, we see them with the slightest ailment etc etc.

If you think puppy farming should be outlawed then lobby your MP. There's clearly a demand for these puppies and if I get one put on the consulting room table in front of me I'll do the best I can for it. Beyond that it's not my problem.

No wonder the profession has high rates of depression, drug and substance abuse and even suicide if all you do is worry about things completely outside your control.

Re: Client confidientiality

Lorna McHardy — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:39:48 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

I wonder if the RCVS would be able to provide claification on whether we have a responsibility to act on information about people selling diseased animals?

[/quote]

I'd expect that their advice would be along the lines of "well, you're the vet on site, so you'll need to make your own judgement..." It'd be quite nice to be proved wrong.

Re: Client confidientiality

Lorna McHardy — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:36:10 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

it's veterinary surgeons like Micheal who allow puppy farms to flourish

[/quote]

Re: Client confidientiality

Clive Ansell — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:19:56 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Wynne Richards"]

The last time I had an ethical problem(owner who would neither treat nor euthanase (this would have been a true euthanasia ) I phoned Prof Con at RCVS and they were actually very helpful

Wynne

[/quote]

I am having a similar issue with a client at the moment; was the general advice from the college?

Re: Client confidientiality

Kate Richardson — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:31:07 GMT

Well done Mark. Well handled. What did the pet shop say? I think we sometimes need to be brave enough to stick our heads above the parapet like this. If there is any come back, I'd be happy to say that you have done the right thing.

Re: Client confidientiality

Mark Rowland — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 09:45:36 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

Mark - this is in no way a personal dig at you but why do vets seem implicit on 'policing' things. We have no jurisdiction, this is not our problem. I fully agree that you need bring the matter to the attention of the pet shop if they brought you the birds but beyond that you do your best to treat what you are presented with.

If you get disgruntled owners direct them to trading standards, as I believe this would fall under their jurisdiction.

[/quote]

Not taken as one.

I agree that Trading standards are the officail way to go

Trouble has been that the pet shop has said that its not 100% that the bird got the disease from them which one has to conceed is true. Report for client can only identify the likley source. Heres what icve done:

Client with bird: Report issued stating cause of death and likley source, O told that cannot give 100% guarantee on source but likley infected prior to them purchasing the bird.

Pet shop (also clients): Told that they are the likley source and if they wanted to avoid a trading standards (or even RSPCA) investigation they should communicate with the client. Also told that my report would identify them as (in my opinion ) the likley source. Also told (not politely) that if they want their reputation to remain intact they should get this problem sorted but that any heresay or rumours from customers will not come from me.

A future problem will be new diseases with long but unknown incubation periods. How long should pet shops give a guarantee for in a bird going into a single bird household? If the incubation is say ? a year. The bird was bought with the assumption it would live for 30+. Not my problem I know but just a thought.

Le sigh.

Re: Client confidientiality

Hannah Wynne Richards — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 09:39:18 GMT

I'm with Lorna Nichola and Gillian We have a moral duty to animals,and it's veterinary surgeons like Micheal who allow puppy farms to flourish The last time I had an ethical problem(owner who would neither treat nor euthanase (this would have been a true euthanasia ) I phoned Prof Con at RCVS and they were actually very helpful

Wynne

Re: Client confidientiality

Lorna McHardy — Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:13:59 GMT

[quote user="Nicola Lawlor"]

The other arguement to this though is that we have a responsibility for animal welfare.

[/quote]

Yep, that would be the main reason for thinking we should do something; as Gillian said, it seems unethical not to. It's probably just as well we generally have no jurisdiction or obligation even in such cases... can you imagine the resultant hassle and additional, conflicting professional responsibilities if we did!

Re: Client confidientiality

Nicola Lawlor — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 23:17:42 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

If you get disgruntled owners direct them to trading standards, as I believe this would fall under their jurisdiction.

[/quote]

The other arguement to this though is that we have a responsibility for animal welfare. I would be the easy option to walk away and say it is not up to us to police this, but if we don't act effectively in this situation more animals/birds will potentially suffer.

Re: Client confidientiality

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:23:12 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]If you get disgruntled owners direct them to trading standards, as I believe this would fall under their jurisdiction.[/quote]

I have had a similar situation, and this is exactly what I did. I made sure the disease was confirmed to be what I suspected, told the owners that due to their circumstances it almost certainly was infected at time of purchase, and told them to contact trading standards if they were not happy with the 'quality' of their purchase. I personally wasn't happy 'reporting' the breeder directly myself but I don't know if the purchasers actually did anything about it. My contact with the breeder is rare (only when they have no choice ) so no idea how they are doing now...

I wonder if the RCVS would be able to provide claification on whether we have a responsibility to act on information about people selling diseased animals? It does seem unethical to withhold this knowledge....

Re: Client confidientiality

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 22:09:30 GMT

If you get disgruntled owners direct them to trading standards, as I believe this would fall under their jurisdiction.

Re: Client confidientiality

Lorna McHardy — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:42:18 GMT

[quote user="Mark Rowland"]

OK heres a bit of a dilema.

Client is a store that sells parrots. One young parrot presents in extremis, and dies despite hospitalisation. PM shows up contagious disease of parrots. Client over the next few months, despite advice on trying to identify the source client does little and brings in the odd v ill parrot for either treatment or pts with no work up for that specific condition or pm allowed. Owners bring in sick birds aquired from the pet shop. I know what is going on and confirm it both in life and by pm???

Discuss (please).

[/quote]

<"discussion">

Bugger.

</discussion>

Joking apart, I take it the contagious disease in question is not a zoonosis? You have, to the best of my knowledge and belief, no legal clout to make this pet shop owner deal with the problem so the best you can do there is talk to him with as much clarity and eloquence as you can muster, touching on such things as his responsibilities, the difficult position he might be putting you in should somebody come to see you with a sick parrot bought in his shop, and how it's not a Good Thing for the poor bloody parrots that keep getting infected (you'd think he'd work that one out for himself, wouldn't you). And if an expert on exotic pets can't get through to him, I'm sure I don't know who could

As for the poor mugs getting lumbered with sick parrots (I'm sorry, but I'm finding it really difficult not to laugh, being unable to get the words "this is an ex-parrot!!!" out of my head), I don't think you can tell them directly that you know the pet shop has a problem, however tempting it might be. You're stuck, aren't you! Urgh.

Re: Client confidientiality

Marie Kubiak — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 21:29:35 GMT

In these situations I try to politely express concern to the new owners that the condition is likely present at purchased (presuming this one of the viral parrot pathologies...) as most owners who buy from pet shops are single bird households with no other source for infection, and suggest they discuss the problem with the pet shop. That way you don't break confidentiality but place the onus on the owner to complain directly to the pet shop. Usually means pet shop makes more of an effort to deal with it as complaints/refunds/reduced sales are more of a motivator than me whinging at them!

Marie