Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 19:32:13 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]

ok, that's a different cup of tea...

[/quote]

Probably a glass of water.................

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Anthony Todd — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 19:27:22 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

You posted at 23:19 last night and then 09:53 this morning: give people a chance!

[/quote]

Yes, dinosaurs had to get up early and go to bed late to cope with the many clients clients clamouring for our expertise [now wait for the ordural response]

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Thomas Johnson — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 18:03:54 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]

very sorry to hear!, but very interesting, too, as you are the first human I come across who actually picked the infection up (and had symptoms). I know it's supposed to be a zoonosis and many animals and humans pick it up without having symptoms. Yesterday a friend with a dog recently diagnosed with giardiosis asked me the question how contagious is it for humans? I couldn't really tell as I've never met someone who was affected. On the other hand, people just may not tell you that they have it?

[/quote]

On a CPD course recently I was told that there are different subtypes of giardia that effect different species so the zoonotic risk is very low.

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Dagmar Steele — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 17:24:22 GMT

ok, that's a different cup of tea...

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Rob Loxley — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 17:21:01 GMT

I didn't pick it up at work, but on holiday in Tibet a few years back.

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Dagmar Steele — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 16:51:44 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]

Yes, after I picked up Giardia (NOT recommended) it took ages after treatment for things to fully settle :(

[/quote]

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Rob Loxley — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 16:45:04 GMT

[quote user="Dagmar Steele"]tend to have a very sensitive gut for a long time afterwards, anyone else gets the same impression?[/quote]

Yes, after I picked up Giardia (NOT recommended) it took ages after treatment for things to fully settle :(

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Dagmar Steele — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 15:44:17 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

We use the Giardia Speed test a lot here! We get a lot of positives and a lot of problem diarrhoeas clear up with a week of Fenbendazole.

Our results suggest that the test works and Giardia is a common pathogen. Not evidence based I am afraid but at least it gives us something to tell the owner, a treatment that seems to work most of the time and owners are much more inclined to stick to special diets if recommended! They are usually a little more patient if the diarrhoea recurs!

[/quote]

I second that, we see more and more Giardia cases, most diarrheas that don't clear up fast are Giardia or allergy. I find that animals affected in young age tend to have a very sensitive gut for a long time afterwards, anyone else gets the same impression?

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Bob Russell — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 15:29:47 GMT

We use the Giardia Speed test a lot here! We get a lot of positives and a lot of problem diarrhoeas clear up with a week of Fenbendazole.

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Rob Loxley — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 14:41:23 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Still waiting for an answer![/quote]

You posted at 23:19 last night and then 09:53 this morning: give people a chance!

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Anthony Todd — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 09:53:55 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Yeah, but what was the diet, or changes in diet, and include everything, in detail, that has been changed.

Does she eat everything as before, no changes at all?

If so then I accept that the drugs used have done the trick?

[/quote]

Still waiting for an answer!

I am mindful of the "Ovarid" cure for "miliary dermatitis", without the concurrent insistence on flea control, and the plethora of drugs for FUS without the total diet change and induced polydypsia.....

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 08:41:48 GMT

[quote user="Andrew Kent"][quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Great news - don't stop the fenbendazole either ;)

[/quote] I don't see that there is any benefit in giving longer than 7-10 days of fenbendazole, repeated if needed. It can cause cytopaenias with longer use.

[/quote]

BSAVA formulary says you can give it to pregnant bitches from day 40 to 2 days post whelping - that's about 20-25 days. Granted, it's at 25mg/kg, not 50 mg/kg of the standard. I was just going from the logic of a badly damaged, inflamed gut could be vulnerable to reinfestation, especially if any eggs are present or the dog just picks up more parasite larvae along the way - don't give the little so-and-so's a chance! :)

I'm happy to be corrected; I'm no specialist, just first opinion.

Cheers,

Mark

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Andrew Kent — Thu, 01 Mar 2012 07:49:11 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Great news - don't stop the fenbendazole either ;)

[/quote] I don't see that there is any benefit in giving longer than 7-10 days of fenbendazole, repeated if needed. It can cause cytopaenias with longer use.

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 23:40:51 GMT

Great news - don't stop the fenbendazole either ;)

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Anthony Todd — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 23:19:45 GMT

Yeah, but what was the diet, or changes in diet, and include everything, in detail, that has been changed.

Does she eat everything as before, no changes at all?

If so then I accept that the drugs used have done the trick?

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Sara Ramsey — Wed, 29 Feb 2012 21:36:11 GMT

Just an update, She is on baytril and advocate and had 7 days of panacur. Doing much better, gone from 16.9kg to 22.7kg and faecal consistency "getting there" though still not normal. Will be extending the baytril. hopefully things will continue to improve.

Thanks for all the replies.

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Richard Fox — Thu, 19 Jan 2012 13:47:55 GMT

BTW as above further info on histiocytic ulcerative colitis?

http://www.abbeyvetservices.co.uk/newsletters/jun11.htm

Not sure the Hx fits?

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Anthony Todd — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 20:44:21 GMT

[quote user="Richard Carter"]Problem is DD list massive incl Giardia and campylobacter if from puppy farm - I would do 3 weeks metronidazole, bland diet, medium acting dexamethazone (eg Voren) to start assuming you happy with your fenbendazole rx otherwise repeat as well, re-assess 7 d (if ok - abs and cortisone have an effect) 14 d re-assess as now abs alone, cortisone worn off = recurrence diarrhoea Dx inflamm/ allergic/intolerence causes; if still ok can concentrate on infectious/ bacterial overgrowth causes.[/quote]

Please, please, before you go through all this do a diet trial exactly and religiously as I have suggested.

A "bland" diet is far too non-specific and is often interpreted so as to include milk..... Chicken and water, on lead, no other food source etc. etc. then say it again.

One thing I forgot,in the regime suggested, was 24 hours water only before you start the chicken.

I saw so many dogs and cats who had been on all sort of medications, diagnostics and at vast expense cured, or at least diagnosed, after Colin's observation.

If there's no change after 7 days max. then start on all the massive DD list.

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Sara Ramsey — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:13:43 GMT

[quote user="James Laidlaw"]

Could also try supplementing with fortiflora as it works out quite cheap (or can be purchased online - which I have had a client do a year or so ago as she had financial difficulties), what about a repeat faecal sample first? Initial lab pooled sample was in July and the recurrence was November? Could have new problems or recurrence of coccidia (although probably self limiting, no?)?

[/quote]

Thanks for the suggestion, we have done repeat sample. Incidently, I don't think she recurred, she just stopped coming back to the vets until November, so has had diarrohoea for at least 7 months

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Sara Ramsey — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 19:10:48 GMT

Thanks for all the replies. The January poop sample came back as nothing abnormal detected. The owner hadn't bought any hydrolyzed diet so I have recommended the Purina EN diet and given 7 days of panacur. she is now also on advocate and we have started enrofloxacin (after upgrading her charity status).

In response to a question in the thread, she was on the higher dose or prednisolone for a week before reducing it.

One of my mistakes perhaps is not giving long enough doses, though she had 2 weeks of TMPS but only one of the metronidazole - I think this is because there was absolutely no change.

Thanks again, I find this forum extremely useful and will try return the favour if I ever feel I have anything helpful to say!

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Richard Carter — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:28:38 GMT

Thought coccidia (Isospora spp) thought to be incidental and not pathogenic? By this stage will have chronic changes with self perpetuating IBD

Problem is DD list massive incl Giardia and campylobacter if from puppy farm - I would do 3 weeks metronidazole, bland diet, medium acting dexamethazone (eg Voren) to start assuming you happy with your fenbendazole rx otherwise repeat as well, re-assess 7 d (if ok - abs and cortisone have an effect) 14 d re-assess as now abs alone, cortisone worn off = recurrence diarrhoea Dx inflamm/ allergic/intolerence causes; if still ok can concentrate on infectious/ bacterial overgrowth causes.

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

James Laidlaw — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 17:11:28 GMT

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

Anthony Todd — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:15:20 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Bose"]Hmmm. I would do a diet trial but not rule out biopsy as the next step after that if it does not work.[/quote]

Me too, as I have quoted before Colin Burrows at Florida told me that 90% of his chronic diarrhoea referrals were dietary sensitivies and my guess is that, in a 12 month old dog, the figure would be higher.

I used boiled chicken and water ONLY for a week; no change, start all the other suggestions or possibly try boiled beef say , as another exclusion diet, after that start on all the rarities.

Really difficult to persuade the owner that "only" means just that, and beware of grandma or the kids giving the dog an icecream etc. when the adult is not looking. On the lead in the park too and stop the dog eating fallen apples etc, in the garden or eating the cat's milk or eating the cat's food....

All usual causes of elimination diet failure and not obvious particularly to apparently intelligent owners.....

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

HMC — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 14:52:30 GMT

Hmmm. I would do a diet trial but not rule out biopsy as the next step after that if it does not work.

Re: Unresponsive diarrhoea in a boxer dog

David Mills — Sun, 15 Jan 2012 23:26:26 GMT

Consider press may have v poor absorption with persistent diarrhoea due to bowel oedema, so a short acting dec dose may give you a therapeutic/diagnostic answer.