Early neutering in dogs

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Alet Engelbrecht — Fri, 27 Apr 2012 08:09:57 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

A 12 week finish is still not ideal so it would not surprise me to see a few failures!

[/quote]

In practice, it is normally around the 16 week age. Vets generally write the date of next vaccination as 1 month (most view the 3-4w window as a guide?) and most owners pitch up 4-6 weeks later (if at all - see previous). I still see pups of 4-6 months that have not yet completed their primary courses by neutering.

The obvious problem and frustration for me is the high number of unvaccinated animals and lack of client education - the infectious burden is just so high on these animals, they are going to get something!

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Bob Russell — Thu, 26 Apr 2012 11:05:56 GMT

A 12 week finish is still not ideal so it would not surprise me to see a few failures!

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Simon Neuhoff — Thu, 26 Apr 2012 09:25:46 GMT

[quote user="Alet Engelbrecht"]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]still get breakdowns[/quote]

There are occasional cases where they have gone through the whole course of vaccinations and still get the disease quite severely and I know of at least one puppy that died after 3 correctly administered doses (Parvo confirmed). One of the practices where I locum had in 1 week 2 cases of Parvo in adult dogs, sick enough to be need intensive care. Unfortunately, in these cases, I am not sure of the vaccination history. Most of the cases would have had either no vaccination or 1 vaccination - which obviously places them in the high risk group.

In practice, unfortunately, South African clients are not very compliant (very frustrating), many are uneducated (regardless of social standing) and everyone wants a dog but without the monetary implications. (I find it very difficult, having been in the UK for 8y - you guys have zip to complain about I am met with disbelief when I advise that the pup should not interact with dogs of which the vaccination history is uncertain. Also many practical problems, especially in the poorer communities. We do manage to pull most cases through, but where the puppies do not make it, it is common to see a new puppy with diarrhoea about 2 weeks later (big surprise)

We have also recently run into major problems where lay people get hold of vaccines and go around to breeders and puppy farms to vaccinate puppies by the truckload, with a questionable cold chain and layers of lies from the breeders. They even issue a home printed vaccination certificate with an American medical logo, so the poor punters that buy these puppies (as vaccinated) at a high price are always very surprised when we expressed alarm about these vaccinations.

[/quote]

When I worked near East London, South Africa we had a distemper outbreak with around 60 deaths in unvaccinated "hunting dogs" - that we know of! I shudder to think how many actually died and we never knew about. We also had a never ending throughout of parvo. So I am quite keen on vaccination as a principle!

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Alet Engelbrecht — Thu, 26 Apr 2012 05:47:40 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]still get breakdowns[/quote]

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Anthony Todd — Thu, 26 Apr 2012 01:50:04 GMT

[quote user="Alet Engelbrecht"]Core vaccines at 6, 9, 12 weeks.[/quote]

Do you still get breakdowns with 16week parvo or even later; maternal antibodies must be really high in an endenic area?

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Alet Engelbrecht — Wed, 25 Apr 2012 14:37:36 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

A thread drift, but in a high risk area the maternal antibody level is likely to be high so the 6 week shot is likely to be neutralised, I've always understood.

AFAIK that's why the 16 week shot was recommended?

Of course commercial pressure[?] developed vaccines which gave protection at an earlier and earlier age which is fine if there's no exposure, if not; fingers crossed!

[/quote]

Just something I found interesting: Working in South Africa at the moment - the vaccination protocol here is: Core vaccines at 6, 9, 12 weeks. Start rabies at 12w, which needs a booster 1-9 months later (legislation, not data sheet, I think). So potentially a new puppy will have 4 vaccinations by 4m of age, which is where I try to spay most of them (coming back to the thread). But before everyone shouts 'OVERVACCINATION' we still see them die of parvo.

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Anthony Todd — Wed, 25 Apr 2012 12:17:07 GMT

[quote user="robloxley"]Surely if it's a high-risk area starting early for parvo vaccs (from 6wks) would make sense?[/quote]

A thread drift, but in a high risk area the maternal antibody level is likely to be high so the 6 week shot is likely to be neutralised, I've always understood.

AFAIK that's why the 16 week shot was recommended?

Of course commercial pressure[?] developed vaccines which gave protection at an earlier and earlier age which is fine if there's no exposure, if not; fingers crossed!

The manufacturer will compensate the owner anyway.....

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Mark Holmes — Wed, 25 Apr 2012 07:19:30 GMT

I wish people would not vaccinate for a 10 week finish in "low risk areas" the pups are often sold to "high risk areas" with a first vac too early to allow a 12 week finish without restarting causing problems.

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Alet Engelbrecht — Wed, 25 Apr 2012 06:10:37 GMT

[quote user="plantagenet"]

[quote user="Clair Firth"]they would suggest that we look at the owner's living situation and consider whether it is better for a bitch to be in season twice a year or incontinent 365 days a year?[/quote]

That sounds a bit silly and emotive - from your lecturers I would add, not you - most of the bitches you neuter won't be incontinent and those will probably respond to treatment. I would imagine that and in season newfy in an apartment could be very unpleasant!

[/quote]

I am not sure a newfy has to be incontinent to smell of wee...

Joining the discussion a bit late, but coming from a third world country - we do see a lot of unwanted dogs & roaming dogs. This leads to a high incidence of rta's, makes them more predisposed to infectious diseases and in certain areas also TVT. No one would know whether they are incontinent before neutering as they live outside... Not many obese though!

What we also see sometimes is a 'well-meaning' (human) nurse going around and zapping some of the bitches with delvosterone (at human dose of course), leading to spectacular pyos. Most of the strays do not seem to be affected by mammary tumours - either because they breed all the time or are killed by something else.

I concede that things are a lot different in the UK and Europe, even in those countries where neutering is not common - but it is only because of good veterinary care and client education that you managed to get to this state.

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:26:46 GMT

[quote user="Pieter Fourie"]

What do you get when you rebreed these mongrels? Maybe that is what these breeders try to avoid!

[/quote]

I have seen a dog described by its owners as a fourth generation labradoodle, so I guess they must be breeding labradoodles with each other.

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Pieter Fourie — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:06:38 GMT

What do you get when you rebreed these mongrels? Maybe that is what these breeders try to avoid! as far as age and size is concerned, a 12 week Rottie or Lab is no smaller than a 6 mth Chihauhau or Yorkie and if you can use a spay hook no incision should be too big. Pieter Fourie

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Pieter Fourie — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:06:31 GMT

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Braden Collins — Fri, 06 Jan 2012 02:46:49 GMT

When we started the 10 week finish we were also a low risk area, only seeing 1-2 cases in a bad year. Then we had a major outbreak with some days where we were getting 3 cases. This is when we started to get the breakdowns (5 in total) with the 10 week finish. Nearby practices also experienced a similar issue. We are also a semi-rural area but I would be vary cautious of calling any area low-risk, because if an outbreak occurs you may have up to a year where a large percentage of young dogs may be open to infection.

Re: Early neutering in dogs

James Laidlaw — Fri, 06 Jan 2012 01:55:59 GMT

Also, just realised the op was early neutering in dogs. In the words of John Cleese, I'm sorry I have a cold.

Re: Early neutering in dogs

James Laidlaw — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 14:26:04 GMT

Jumping into the debate - back to early neutering issues - I had heard recently that early neutering in male cats can lead to/have an association with a degenerative hip condition akin to legg-perthes? Unfortunately at the time we were discussing no-one was aware of the age/link between the two, but majority of cases in young male cats neutered early.

I still work on the mammary tumor/incontinence angle, either pre season or post season between 1st and 2nd for speys. There is also info to suggest neutered animals live longer - but I assume this may be coincidence rather than causality as info wouldn't be collected from people who never go to vets for the basics like neutering, and animals that are neutered are more often regular patients compared to those that aren't.

James

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Utlendigur — Tue, 03 Jan 2012 14:17:04 GMT

The pup wasn't from a high risk area (or going to one in this case). I always thought the idea of a parvo vacc at 6wks was to start protection early in situations where the pup was at high risk at an early age eg rescue centres, areas with parvo outbreaks, puppy farms/dodgy breeders, but that it got mopped up fairly quickly by the higher levels of maternally derived antibodies present at that age, and was therefore less effective. We used to see quite a few pups that just had a single parvo shot at 6wks, and would then give the normal 2 vaccinations from 8-10wks. So, yes, if it was at high risk early on, give a vaccination at 6wks - but then there are the questions of timing of the second vaccination - there do seem to be some concerns about the effectiveness of a 10wk finish, and I'd have thought that to leave it until 12wks plus would leave too long a gap (particularly if the first vaccination produced a limited response because of maternal antibodies), unless you gave a third vaccination - which we weren't allowed to do. Or I may have got things totally confused..

I certainly don't think this pup was at risk at 6wks given the owner's description of having to get kitted out in latex gloves, overshoes etc simply to see it.

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Rob Loxley — Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:42:17 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]Personally I feel 6 weeks is too early combined with a 10wk finish, particularly if the pup ended up in a high risk area.[/quote]

Surely if it's a high-risk area starting early for parvo vaccs (from 6wks) would make sense?

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Utlendigur — Tue, 03 Jan 2012 13:12:36 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

And how did the new owner react when you pointed out what a load of boondocks it all was?

Let me guess.

[/quote]

Actually the husband (who brought the dog in) thought it was over the top too - I suspect some some domestic disagreements on the horizon.

As far as the vaccinations - we're in a semi rural, low risk area so we do usually finish at 10-12 weeks, but we don't start until at least 8 weeks old - often 9 or 10 depending when we first see the pup. Personally I feel 6 weeks is too early combined with a 10wk finish, particularly if the pup ended up in a high risk area.

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 03 Jan 2012 04:33:54 GMT

[quote user="Utlendigur"]

We've just had our first Australian Labradoodle pup in. 10 wks old, spayed at least 2wks ago from the look of the incision. Price tag 10x what one of our good local rescues are suggesting as a donation for a vaccinated, chipped, neutered dog. Copious pages of instructions from the breeder including the demand that the 2nd vaccination be the same brand as the first, and that the pup must absolutely not have a third vaccination because it "will cause autoimmune disease". Ok I know there are all sorts of issues about using different brands as follow-ons but what if your practice doesn't stock the same brand (luckily we do - but are we supposed to order a whole box if we didn't?) and you follow the data sheet/manufacturers guidance that says they can't guarantee the immune response, especially given the fact that the first vaccination was at 6wks when there is still a lot of maternal antibodies. Obviously the breeder is better able to decide than a vet . The new owner had also been instructed not to let anyone except themselves handle the pup until 12wks old and limit visitors to the house because of disease risks - so sod socialisation.

[/quote]

And how did the new owner react when you pointed out what a load of boondocks it all was?

Let me guess.

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Braden Collins — Tue, 03 Jan 2012 04:25:39 GMT

Just a word of caution which you may wish to pass on to the owners of this pup. We've had a lot of parvo recently and for a while we followed the manufacturers instuctions of giving the final vaccination at 10-12 weeks, as was apparently ok for this brand. We had 5 vaccine failures in as many months with dogs vaccinated at that age, with the majority being 9-11 months when contracting parvovirus. We still get the occasional owner who wants to stop at the second vaccination, but after this experience we have gone back to a 16 week finish and the breakdowns have stopped (though still seeing 1-2 parvo cases weekly in unvaccinated dogs)

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Utlendigur — Mon, 02 Jan 2012 21:21:28 GMT

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Rob Loxley — Wed, 21 Dec 2011 17:35:57 GMT

[quote user="Rob Davis"]What the abstract says is: "Urinary incontinence after spaying occurred in 9.7% of bitches. This incidence is approximately half that of spaying after the first oestrus", [/quote]

I may be being thick, but this paper is an owner survey of just bitches spayed before 1st oestrus, with no control groups that were spayed after 1st oestrus or not spayed at all? The abstract isn't clear where the comparrison % is taken from, and whether that population/survey methods etc. are similar to allow direct comparisson, making meaningful analysis harder. Likewise the comment on the severity of clinical signs.

David Broadbelt's controlled study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20004121) and another RVC study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9888109) failed to demonstrate a statistically significant difference in incidence of incontinence when spayed pre/post 1st oestrus.

I think some of the confusion is comparing incidences after UK-early-spay (at say 5-7months old) vs. US-early-spay at 8-12 weeks old?

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Rob Davis — Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:22:05 GMT

[quote user="Clair Firth"]Vienna we learn that the main clinical reasons not to spay before the first season are incontinence (e.g. paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11787155 urinary incontinence occurred after spaying in 9.7% of cases (N=206)) [/quote]

What the abstract says is: "Urinary incontinence after spaying occurred in 9.7% of bitches. This incidence is approximately half that of spaying after the first oestrus", ie that pre-pubertal spaying seems to decrease the incidence of incontinence. However the other paper says: "decreasing age at gonadectomy was associated with increased rate of urinary incontinence". Hmmmmmmm.....

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Julie Innes — Tue, 20 Dec 2011 23:23:34 GMT

Are the CPL not now advocating neutering at 14wks too? My main concerns come from anaesthetising the littlies more than anything else (although I'm not attempting to back that up with any real research, it's just my "feeling" )

I'm happy to do pre-season spays, although I do usually prefer giant breeds to have had a first season

My own dog never cocked his leg until after he was neutered!

Re: Early neutering in dogs

Lorna McHardy — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:00:52 GMT

Thanks Rob, that's interesting... particularly the bit about the behavioural differences, which is unexpected.