rabbit tear duct flushing

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 04 Mar 2014 12:15:41 GMT

Not following the thread exactly, but on the same topic...

When it comes to flushing tear ducts, if they are in a bad way should it always be done under GA?

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

mariette asselbergs — Mon, 03 Mar 2014 16:31:09 GMT

There was a serious of excellent articles about all this (rabbit dental disease, tear duct problems and other dental related rabbit head problems) in In Practice 2009 (September, October and November/December issues. Lots and lots of photographs and very practical and experienced advice..

Highly recommended.

Mariette

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 26 Feb 2014 01:15:20 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]IME they find it more difficult to prehend fibrous food and to clean away their caecotrophs both of which may lead to a dirty bottom and potential fly strike.[/quote]

OK.

IME the opposite is true- it is the ones with dreadful incisors that have the long term problems. The rabbits who have the removed are rarely seen again....

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 26 Feb 2014 01:15:17 GMT

duplicated

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 18:37:53 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]If you start extracting rabbit incisors you open a Pandora's box of potential problems related to eating/grooming etc.[/quote]

how?

[/quote]IME they find it more difficult to prehend fibrous food and to clean away their caecotrophs both of which may lead to a dirty bottom and potential fly strike.

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Bibs — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 17:27:00 GMT

[quote user="Hannah Bose"]

You could suggest your colleague posts the radiographs on this forum...

[/quote]

Yeah that's a good idea. If we end up doing it then I will.

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

HMC — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 17:03:54 GMT

You could suggest your colleague posts the radiographs on this forum...

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Bibs — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 15:37:57 GMT

Thanks everyone for the info and links to info.

This case is one that I booked in and suggested to the owner XRs might be an idea but another vet actually is doing the procedure. Don't think they are keen on radiographing the rabbit espcially because owner's money is tight and it's not something that's usually done in this practice.

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 15:27:11 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]If you start extracting rabbit incisors you open a Pandora's box of potential problems related to eating/grooming etc.[/quote]

how?

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Linda Filshie — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 11:16:18 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Linda Filshie"][quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Also, we might as well get this right: rabbits' teeth do not have roots.

[/quote] So purely in the interests of correct terminology what is the right word for the bits of rabbit teeth that are below the gum line?

[/quote]

Subgingival tooth. Subgingival portion of tooth. Or subgingival crown, but it's all crown anyway.

[/quote]

Cool - thanks. My one new thing learned for today!

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Martin Atkinson — Tue, 25 Feb 2014 11:03:57 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]If the duct is obstructed due to dental disease then it is likely to be fibrosed and extraction will not help[/quote]

Yes, but you might want to extract incisors to end the progression of disease. That's what I meant.

[/quote]I didn't say don't look or even don't extract, I was just putting forward a possible treatment protocol if the ducts are permanently fibrosed. If you start extracting rabbit incisors you open a Pandora's box of potential problems related to eating/grooming etc.

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Rob Loxley — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 19:50:28 GMT

Someone wiser than me once said "most missed diagnoses are missed through not looking rather than not seeing"

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 19:44:53 GMT

[quote user="Martin Atkinson"]If the duct is obstructed due to dental disease then it is likely to be fibrosed and extraction will not help[/quote]

Yes, but you might want to extract incisors to end the progression of disease. That's what I meant.

Which reminds me of what I was going to say: if the incisors look perfectly normal clinically, then there probably isn't disease of the incisors. The OP asked if it would be worthwhile radiographing the skull to rule out dental problems, and it would. The teeth might be fine, and that would be useful to know. And why not put some Conray in the flushing fluid and visualise the duct?

Marie – intra-oral.

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 19:28:13 GMT

[quote user="Linda Filshie"][quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Also, we might as well get this right: rabbits' teeth do not have roots.

[/quote] So purely in the interests of correct terminology what is the right word for the bits of rabbit teeth that are below the gum line?

[/quote]

Subgingival tooth. Subgingival portion of tooth. Or subgingival crown, but it's all crown anyway.

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Martin Atkinson — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 19:14:37 GMT

If the duct is obstructed due to dental disease then it is likely to be fibrosed and extraction will not help. More aqueous eye drops may be more beneficial so Acular drops bid for the inflammation and Ciloxan drops qid as antibiotic have been suggested previously.

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Rob Davis — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:59:58 GMT

[quote user="Elizabeth Billimore"]There are two main concerns I have about x-rays. 1) I'm not sure what is normal and what is not,[/quote]

There is an excellent article on this in The European Journal of Companion Animal Practice Vol 21 (1) April 2011 pp47-56. If you can't access a copy PM me.

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Marie Kubiak — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 14:48:38 GMT

[quote user="Elizabeth Billimore"]

There are two main concerns I have about x-rays. 1) I'm not sure what is normal and what is not, and 2) I don't think I'd be removing a molar from a rabbit.

The owner might still find it helpful to know if we did confirm a dental issue I suppose as they would then understand what they underlying cause may be.

[/quote]

It would mean you don't pursue ongoing diagnostics to evaluate infectious origin, you don't subject this rabbit to repeat interventions and it would give you early warning that this rabbit is likely to develop further dental pathology in future.

For interpretation, there is a nice paper (free-access too) at:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bio.miami.edu%2Fhare%2Frabbit_dental.pdf&ei=u1kLU7rYCbHT7AbkmIDoCg&usg=AFQjCNEUszZC85aDus_1GP07Xu1faP8Xxw&bvm=bv.61725948,d.bGQ&cad=rja

Be cautious in the more extreme rabbit sizes (netherland dwarf, very small mini lop and giant breeds) as the guidelines relate more to the middle-sized bunnies and haven't been evaluated in the extremes. Even so, it is a nice simple guide.

[quote user="Linda Filshie"]

So purely in the interests of correct terminology what is the right word for the bits of rabbit teeth that are below the gum line?

[/quote]

I tend to use apex/apices but must admit with owners I often resort to just saying 'roots' for simplicity and this often sticks...

Evelyn - do you have much success managing these with extraction, if so are you doing an intra or extra-oral approach?

Marie

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Linda Filshie — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 13:53:47 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

Also, we might as well get this right: rabbits' teeth do not have roots.

[/quote] So purely in the interests of correct terminology what is the right word for the bits of rabbit teeth that are below the gum line?

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Bibs — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 13:31:26 GMT

There are two main concerns I have about x-rays. 1) I'm not sure what is normal and what is not, and 2) I don't think I'd be removing a molar from a rabbit.

The owner might still find it helpful to know if we did confirm a dental issue I suppose as they would then understand what they underlying cause may be.

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 13:12:19 GMT

Also, we might as well get this right: rabbits' teeth do not have roots.

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 13:10:24 GMT

I see your point, but extraction might be indicated

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

ChrisBVSc — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 13:04:48 GMT

If the xrays show the roots to be the cause of the blocked/damage duct, is there anything you can realistically do about it beyond regular flushing & antibiotic drops? I've never really had much long term success with these cases.

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:41:17 GMT

[quote user="Elizabeth Billimore"]Would this help to rule out dental root problems (we don't have dental XR)[/quote]

Yes. A good lateral and a good VD would be very helpful despite the limitations. Look especially at the deep ends of the upper incisors. Also the deep ends of the cheek teeth.

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

Bibs — Mon, 24 Feb 2014 12:17:20 GMT

Just resurrecting a thread to ask a question:

I have a rabbit that has re-occuring white/purrulent eye discharge and inflammation in the left eye. It got better after one of the other vets flushed the duct conscious and gave it a course of fucithalmic. Now the discharge has re-occured. The rabbit it coming in tomorrow to be speyed and we were going to repeat the flushing while under GA.

I had a look at the rabbit's teeth conscious but didn't see anything majorly abnormal.

The main thing I'm considering is if there is any point radiographing the rabbit's skull while under GA. Would this help to rule out dental root problems (we don't have dental XR) and if so does anyone have any tips or pictures of what is normal and what is not? This may also apply to examining the teeth in general. I'm used to looking at spurs and sharp edges causing lesions to the tongue etc. but not certain what else to look for with rabbits.

I'll be trawling the books and VIN but any other tips would be appreciated.

Re: rabbit tear duct flushing

CatherineThomas — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 11:36:33 GMT

I've tried to do it in a dog and a cat under GA and have found it very difficult but rabbits are much easier. You just need to put a drop of local anaesthetic in the eye and the rabbit usually tolerates it well.